Suicide Doors for T3s

[DuncanS]

So now that I know what a hinge would look like the question becomes--how does it attach to the B pillar and the door. My thought would be to construct a "cassette" that would have the quadrant arms welded to a substantial base plate parallel to the rear edge of the door and the pin supports also welded together in an angle iron type of frame structure The pin supports are welded to one of the inside edges and the other would have the clearance holes for the quadrants. After very careful measurement and drawings a hole exactly the size of the cassette plate would be cut into the forward side of the B pillar and then it would be welded in place. This frame would be substantially heavier than the factory pillar steel, so nothing would be compromised in terms of strength. The door end of the hinge quadrants will be welded to a piece of 3/16” flat stock with four countersunk allen flat heads holding it in place. To allow adjustment, the bolts go into a floating plate behind a heavy gauge section welded into the back edge of the door that have oversized holes at the bolt location. This will allow for in and out and up and down adjustment for the door. Four socket head allen set screws adjacent to the bolt heads will allow for door seam and tilt adjustment.

[DuncanS]

Of the three design components to this project, hinges, crash safety door restraint and handle/latch, only the last hasn’t been covered yet. From an engineering solution, this seems to be the easiest as it is strictly a cut and past—-at least for the door.

And where it goes:

A set of donor doors would help this project immensely and reduce driving down time.

[DuncanS]

And of course this photo too.

[Aryana]

Subscribed...this is great!!

[DuncanS]

One issue not mentioned is the air delivery duct to the B pillar and high vents aft of the driver would be blocked by the lower hinges. The vent in the front doors would still work, but to me, neither of these have any real value. There are windows that can be opened and in the rain, the dash vents seem to work well to bring air in. The AC fan can be used to circulate any dead air in the back, so I'm never really used any of them and wouldn't mourn their loss.

After doing all this noodling, I went on line and Googled suicide doors to see what other non Vanagon owners might have done. I've attended a couple of the Street Rod Nationals and know that guys with show cars occasionally do this modification. OMG!!! There is a whole world of people involved in this. Even in the business of supplying hinges. Here's one:

They seem to be the most common--probably price, but they are so universal that they don't really work very well for any vehicle. One of the biggest issues is the longitudinal arm coming off the hinge that often fouls the window mechanism. There are a ton of videos of guys working with them and in many cases so many modifications are required that you can barely recognize what they started with. And another. The bottom one here even has detents to hold the door in an open position,

These guys are better, but still need rework:

When I first saw these photos, I was encouraged to discover that my thinking was what the pros do. This hinge mounts to the back of the door jamb which is what my design does and completely eliminates the window problem.

https://www.scissor-doors.com/cart/special-order-h..._1240&
This company seems to be the best and will custom design and produce hinges specifically for the T3. Yes, it's not cheap, but by the time I build mine, they wouldn't be cheap either and Scissor Doors has previous experience eliminating the need to make a set of hinges two or three times to get them to work well.

There are some really funny videos of not-the-brightest-bulbs-on-the-tree welding stuff in with globs of spatter and weld metal all over the place. Check some out if you're bored. It'll brighten your day and have you realize that your "stupid" project is actually really nice after all.

Duncan

[Bulli Klinik]

Interesting direction. I just hope you don't find out why they're called suicide doors.
_________________
I've never met a Bus I didn't like.
Mike K
Bulli Klinik
Colorado Springs

[61Scout]

I've always loved the way the front doors are designed. One of the best features, IMO is the fact that it's cut out over the wheel, which raises the clearance height from the ground. Without this, my dog would have been knocked in the head more than once. By altering the design to the suicide option, this advantage would be gone. Also, the side mirror would swing out with the door, which would limit the clearance. And of course the aforementioned safety concerns.

Besides the "cool factor" (which admittedly I do like the looks of suicide doors) there doesn't seem to be any practical advantage for vanagons. And on that note, this modification is not comparable to other modifications where functionality, performance, or parts availability are issues.

That said, our time is our time. I spend mine how I want to, and I do crazy and arguably useless things with my time. Forge ahead!!! Like others, I'm interested to see in how far this goes.

-Kevin
_________________
1986 Westfalia Weekender Wolfsburg, RJE 2.3
1985 Tin Top, Subie 2.2 + 5MT
Floppy Mirrors no more: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=653018&highlight=
Remove the front spindle nut with ease: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=679567&highlight=
Remove the rear wheel bearing housing without messing with the big 46mm nut: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=679507&highlight=

-Nec Spe, Nec Metu

[SCM]

[DuncanS]

Tons of cons, admittedly, but as I wrote in the first post:

transferred my passenger seat back to the old car. Opened the door, grabbed the “A” pillar handle and swung in. I couldn’t believe the experience. I had assumed that it might be awkward and that would be the end of the exercise. However, much to my surprise it was far easier to get in than with the conventional hingeing. Because the footwell step is now just right in front of you, the center of gravity of your body is over the step, so there is no hanging on to the handle while awkwardly swinging your butt over the seat. Wonderful. So………………….

And a dog would be able to have the entire footwell free to leap aboard. It truly is a whole lot easier to get in with the suicide configuration. All that being said, would like to hear from guys who have removed their doors for rebuild reasons and discovered what it's like to get in with the door out of the way. While I'm at it, maybe the driver's seat should be mounted on a hydraulic pantograph and hinge out so a fella could sit down outside and push a button. One thing for sure, I don't think the mirrors would like it. Note in the photo of the trial with my dead beast I had already harvested the mirrors.

I've always said that for the hundred ideas I have every minute, 107 of them are terrible.

[levi]

A sense of humor is a spectacular thing to own when you have a vanagon.
_________________
One of these days I'm gonna settle down,
but till I do I won't be hangin round.
Going down that long lonesome highway,
gonna see life my way

https://youtu.be/cSrL0BXsO40

[Aryana]

I can see how getting in and out would be easier. Keep going, and let's see this come to fruition!

[DuncanS]

So, to sum it all up at this point, I think there are reasonable solutions for 1. Hinges, 2. Safety restraints for the forward edge of the door in a crash, 3. Latching and opening handle arrangement modifications, 4. Window glass operation clearance, and 5. Significant entrance enhancement.

The forward door seal hasn't been mentioned, but since there is a good lip on the edge, all that would be needed is a ridge on the A pillar to cement the gasket to. This could be a plastic or even epoxy encapsulated wood strip cut the conform to the door epoxied and pan head screwed in place.

The door wiring will all have to be extended and brought into the B pillar and a suitable anti chafe guard developed.

The biggest ugly so far seems to be the shock the mirrors would experience every time the door is closed. At some point, I'll remount one of the harvested items on the test door and slam the bejesus out of it repeatedly to see if the glass mounts move or break. My adjustment motors haven't worked since I bought the car 5 years ago and since I'm essentially the only one to drive it, the mirror glass could be epoxied in a fixed location. Lastly, a restraint to keep the door from opening too far needs to happen. If the stock unit doesn't provide enough open angle, I would resort to the solution my parents '41 Ford Woodie had. A canvas strap pasted in with a pair of strap bolts. That is a limit device only, not a position holder. which could be invented with a notched quadrant and a spring ball detent.

I'll keep going, but right now a model T3 for my grandson's Christmas present has to get some legs. Currently snowing reasonably hard, 26º and unheated garage, so mostly continued development work until Spring. Whittled, painted pine exterior mock-up hinges for visuls as I promised next.

[alaskadan]

Interesting plan and I'd like to see it built. But just now imagining having those doors on a nose less vehicle, certain parking spots might pose a problem? Nose up to a building, or any sort of wall like structure could be harder to get out or in. Obviously backing in becomes the solution....

[DuncanS]

One of the problems I didn't mention, is the awning issue. If you have a 12 foot awning and it's raining you would get wet with suicide doors. Of course there is always the slider in that case. But getting out couldn't be any worse that with an Isetta.

[kaalualu]

My wife is short, I'm tall, she loves enough characteristics about Vanagons to endure the entry/exit issues of the front doors to allow me to own, use and maintain two of them.
But, it's always been an issue for her. Getting rain water butt, parking stalls that seem to be getting narrower, the need to hut ho up and into the cab that she will oftentimes utilize the slider instead, which I gladly opt to operate to keep her sunny disposition sunny.

I hear her obvious solution, "flip the hinges", often.

My question to you Duncan, as you are the one I've seen most involved, has this become one of your daily 107 bad ideas? I read this post and it seemed you were very near to solving most of the hurdles, except the mirror.
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'84 Transporter 16" CLK's/LED's/ AT's/Mansi injectors
'86 Wolfey Weekender Westfalia AT's/otherwise stock
Sold-'82 TinTop Diesel

[GoEverywhere]

[DuncanS]

Great solution. Kneeling buses are common in cities these days and so great to hear about a kneeling T3.

Suicide doors. I don't think it's one of my 107 bad ideas, but so far down the project list that the likelihood of it ever being investigated deeper is pretty remote. Think about it often getting in and out and would to have it.

Mirrors?

The best bet here would be to do what I never did since the mirrors had already been harvested. Swap the hinges--don't need latches and door seals, but just get it to work. Sit on the PS and create a target in the rear of the donor car and mark cross hairs on the mirror so the target is centered. Push open the door and keep slamming it shut and see what happens. If the stock electric heated mirror isn't good enough, then take one apart and see how you might be able to add a set screw in the ball. Maybe even a plastic seat with a screw which could adjust the tension. I did this with my floppy or too stiff vent windows and the solution works really well. A small hole inside and you stick an allen wrench through and make the necessary adjustment. Truck mirrors might be needed. The key would be to mount the center of gravity of the mirrors in plane with the radius of the closing door. This way the mirrors would see a symmetrical force on both sides and have no reason to go out of adjustment.

Wait a minute. In thinking about the forces italicized above, I ambled out to the car and made some measurements. Here is a diagram showing what would happen to the mirror when the door is slammed shut from either stock or suicide.

The bottom line here is the mirror would see about double the impact upon closing in a suicide situation--33" vs. 16". But notice how the distance of the lever arm is very different. Since the radius of closing in a suicide situation is so close to the center of mass of the mirror, I feel confident the forces to dislodge a mirror setting would actually be no different. In other words, go for it, I'm guessing it would be fine.

Duncan

[Corwyn]

They are called "suicide doors" for a reason. To each their own . . .
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'90 White Westy ("The Longship")
FAS Gen V 2.0
The Annual Baja Rally
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=604813&highlight=baja

"If anything's" gonna happen, it's gonna happen out there"
~ Captain Ron ~

[kaalualu]

Thanks Duncan!
If, I was going to even go anywhere near this mod, it just made sense to resurrect your post for an updated view to share with the little woman. I know she prefers driving over tinkering/modification, so I believe this, on our end my be laid to rest.
Although, I think I'd go with truck mirrors, pull them in when the need arose....
_________________
'84 Transporter 16" CLK's/LED's/ AT's/Mansi injectors
'86 Wolfey Weekender Westfalia AT's/otherwise stock
Sold-'82 TinTop Diesel

[DuncanS]