Too little endplay?

[tmart]

I tried searching a bit, but all that ever comes up with regards to end play is when there's too much.

After measuring with two of the three shims in place, I show ~.27 mm of play. (I know this isn't the standard process, I did that too). So is solving this as simple as sanding down the last shim to .~.2 - ~.14 mm? (I can also work on the other shim.) I've actually already started, using some 600 and 1200 grit I had laying around, just like to make sure I'm not doing something blatantly wrong.

This also led me to wonder what would happen if someone had much less endplay. At what point should someone be trying to find why they have so little rather than trying to continue on their build with super skinny shims?
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1990 Vanagon 2.2L Manual
The van that samba built

[Abscate]

What's the spec on your engine ?

0.3 mm is 0.012 inches which is too much end play!,
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[DanHoug]

couple things to watch.... those shims are very hard material, i think it will be hard to remove an appreciable amount by hand. but even more significant, i doubt you can maintain consistent dimensions across the span of the shim.

once you start the sanding process, you may notice that the shims you have are not perfectly flat. i'd wager THAT is more likely your problem. i was driving myself nuts mic'ing shims, assembling, and getting reading that had no relation to the calculated clearance. i had some shims that were less than perfectly flat and my caliper measurement only sampled one tiny wedge of the shim.

so before you sand, if you have other shims just try various sequential combinations regardless of the calculated math. if you don't have more shims, i'd be very tempted to measure with the thrust washer and large shim in place and order what you need to get the necessary clearance.

-dan

[T3 Pilot]

You need to come to terms with your Bentley manual, specifically pages 13.40 and 13.41

You must have a combination of 3 Shims in place PLUS the thrust washer to achieve the correct end play.

Reference the exploded diagram on 13.41 - Shim B is always included and is a fixed thickness, Shims C are the variables. You need a selection of Shims on hand to swap them in to achieve the desired end play. No sanding required....
There are six different variable Shims C available to achieve this combination.

Here are the Shims listed at Van cafe....

http://www.van-cafe.com/crankshaft-c1664



The dimensions listed in fig. 13 are confusing, they are the outside diameters of the Shims B and C and the 4 sided outer retainer washer D

I think you are generally on the right track, but you need to have a supply of many Shims and a micrometer on hand to adjust the end play.
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1988 Vanagon

The most important part in every vehicle is the nut behind the wheel......

[tmart]

Abscate - The spec is .003" - .005". The number I gave was with one of the shims not yet installed. Off the top of my head, the endplay w/o either shim was ~.55mm

Dan - That's actually been my problem and led to me posting here.

T3 - I followed Bentley's procedure exactly. Then after a while I figured I should get a feel for what the third shim needed to be on its own (because of the non-uniformity of the shims as Dan mentioned). That led me to all this because I found it needed to be .27 mm while GW only lists >.3 mm shims available. Where I fell short was checking any other shops. I did see in Bentley that sub .3 mm shims were made before but figured those must not be manufactured anymore. Thanks for the link though, looks like Van Cafe has the shims I need.
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1990 Vanagon 2.2L Manual
The van that samba built

[Wildthings]

Why are you shimming your end play. If it was once good and the case hasn't been apart it is likely still good.

[tmart]

The case has been apart. Although based on how I received the engine, I wouldn't be surprised if the endplay was off to begin with.
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1990 Vanagon 2.2L Manual
The van that samba built

[tmart]

Dammit, just when I thought I had plans perfectly lined up, Van Cafe is out of stock on .24 mm shims. Of course I need 2 x .24 mm shims for things to line up perfectly...

After some research I found a few options but I don't know if they're compatible. Anybody know if Type 1 shim sare compatible with the waterboxer? Sorry if that's a dumb question, I don't have a firm grasp of what that means. Based on a little research it seems like it should work, butI'm not very confident in that research haha.

These are meant for type 1's and early (80-83) vanagons: http://www.mofoco.com/item/FLYWHEEL_SHIMS_24MM_Type_1_ENGINES_Made_in_Germany_by_FEBI/2507/p2c128

These at bus depot only list as being compatible with 63-71 buses: http://www.busdepot.com/113105281a

This one doesn't list compatibility but sounds like it might be for vanagons (air cooled, not sure if that makes a difference)based on the spec description: https://www.kustom1warehouse.net/Flywheel_end_play_shims_for_VW_p/endplayshims.htm I read their buyer and seller feedback though and it's less than promising. This might be a last resort.

Any input is appreciated, especially if anyone knows of a reliable source for the .24 mm shims.
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1990 Vanagon 2.2L Manual
The van that samba built

[Abscate]

[tmart]

After doing some research it seems like these shims might have been used on Porsche 911s and 914s too. If tht'sthe case, it the part number, according to AutoAtlanta.com, of the .24 mm shim was changed from 021105291 to 021105292. Part number 021105292 is a little easier to find, but pretty expensive ~$20 a pop. I checked the crankshaft dimensions of a 1974 914 crankshaft (page 26 here: http://bowlsby.net/914/Classic/zMan_1974_TechSpecs.pdf) and it looks like the journal is the same dimension, or at least within .001 mm.

Can anyone confirm if the shims between these engines are compatible?Or even the same part?
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1990 Vanagon 2.2L Manual
The van that samba built

[djkeev]

Add a paper gasket between the flywheel and the crank if you cannot gain the play you must have with 3 shims.

Make the gasket yourself, you cannot purchase them. Just use a paper weight varying from thin office paper to card stock. Use two if you must.

Dave
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[tmart]

Oh wow, that's a good idea, really simple too if I'm understanding correctly. Is that known to be reliable?

And to clarify, you mean to put that between in the inner surface of the flywheel, next to the o-ring, right? So the flywheel bolts would be poking through the paper gasket as well?
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1990 Vanagon 2.2L Manual
The van that samba built

[MarkWard]

I don't have a lot of 2.1 WBX engine experience, but doesn't the main bearing have separate thrust faces?

I ask, because it is not uncommon on inline 4 cylinders that depend on the actual thrust bearing to determine endplay not a stack of shims. When assembling an inline engine with new main bearings, it is not uncommon to gain the clearance needed by "sanding" the thrust surface on some fine sandpaper on a piece of glass. The thrust bearing material is soft enough that you can quickly get the clearance.

If the 2.1 has a separate main bearing thrust surfaces, could you do something similar with the outer thrust washer?

Using a peice of gasket paper is a new idea to me. I think VW on the 6 volt flywheels used a peice of gasket paper instead of a rubber O ring to seal the flywheel to the crank, so I suppose that would work.

I'd be more interested in why you can't get the end play correct with stock shims, but that is me.
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[tmart]

I was actually considering sanding he thrust washer too. Since I have a spare, it won't hurt to try. The only thing that might get me there is not being able to sand the back evenly and having a slanted thrust surface.


I think I'll be giving both these ideas a test run tonight...

With reagrds to not getting the right endplay, I would be able to get the right clearance, but the shims I need to get there (.24 mm) are in rare supply.
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1990 Vanagon 2.2L Manual
The van that samba built

[djkeev]

[MarkWard]

What slanted surface are you referring to?
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[Wildthings]

[jberger]

Is this the thrust washer that you pinched the case with? If so, make sure it is not deformed which would give you a false tight end play reading.

J

[MarkWard]

[tmart]

Mark - Yes, the thrust bearing is 3 piece. The slanted surface I was worried about was if I sanded it an angle by accident, something that might be easy to do because the tab is offset to the side I was sanding. Either way, the thrust washer's pretty hard to sand like the shims. I spent a good while sanding only to recheck and see I'd taken off a few ten thousandths of an inch.

Dave - I think I'm going to give the paper a try. By my measurements, printer paper gives me exactly the spacing I need to be spot on. Quick question about the grease though: Wouldn't that add a little thickness to the paper? Kind of like why Boston Bob checked his endplay with dry shims? What would the proper procedure be to add the paper spacer this way?
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1990 Vanagon 2.2L Manual
The van that samba built