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lil-jinx
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Joined: August 14, 2013
Posts: 1109
Location: New Brunswick,Canada
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sb001
Samba Member
Joined: May 19, 2011
Posts: 10406
Location: NW Arkansas
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 Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 9:26 pm Post subject: Re: Comment/opinion on these brake components |
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| tomfreo wrote: |
What a f**ker of a job! Got one piston out. Removed seal as advised. Cleaned and popped back in. Now it doesn't hold air (maybe unsurprising really) and the other piston's not moving.  What now? |
Looks like scrivvy's advice really effed up your caliper, sorry man.
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Busdepot
Samba Member
Joined: March 24, 2004
Posts: 1314
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| Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 10:15 pm Post subject: Re: Comment/opinion on these brake components |
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| tomfreo wrote: |
| What a f**ker of a job! Got one piston out. Removed seal as advised. Cleaned and popped back in. Now it doesn't hold air (maybe unsurprising really) and the other piston's not moving. What now? |
Sorry to pour salt on the wound, but this is why a new $99 caliper is the right solution for most people. You still have to buy the rebuild components, and then you have to factor in the time, aggravation, and risk - what's that worth? Obviously there's a cost threshold at which rebuilding makes more sense, and that depends on all kinds of things like your wallet and your experience. But at $99, if my '78 Crew Cab needed one I'd just throw a new one in and call it a day.
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scrivyscriv
Samba Electrician
Joined: October 04, 2011
Posts: 2922
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 1:03 am Post subject: Re: Comment/opinion on these brake components |
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| tomfreo wrote: |
| What a f**ker of a job! Got one piston out. Removed seal as advised. Cleaned and popped back in. Now it doesn't hold air (maybe unsurprising really) and the other piston's not moving. What now? |
You're halfway there; lube up the free piston and bore seal, and put them back in place.. like the other good fellas have said, clamp that piston in loosely, and pop the other piston out into a shop towel with grease gun pressure.
All respect to Ron, brake calipers are an easy job as long as they're not cracked; it just depends on what your time is worth and if you're working on a DD that needs to get you to work tomorrow.
Now if you REALLY want to go down the rabbit hole..
http://www.pmbperformance.com/calipers.html
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technic...built.html
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airschooled
Air-Schooled
Joined: April 04, 2012
Posts: 12722
Location: on a bike ride somewhere
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| Posted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 2:38 am Post subject: Re: Comment/opinion on these brake components |
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tomfreo, the brake caliper pliers shown below are what professionals use to un-stick caliper pistons. They are excellent in rotating a stuck piston, which will usually break the corrosion or "stuck-ness" of the seal enough to twist the piston out with the pliers themselves. I'm not saying you need to buy a set, but perhaps you could find something around your house or shop to rotate the piston a little to "break the seal." As said earlier, reinstalling and clamping the freed seal and having another go with your pressure method may pop the stuck piston out. It seems to me you’re frustrated, but I would take it more as "you have discovered the cause of your brake issues." 
Robbie
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Last edited by airschooled on Fri Dec 15, 2017 11:04 am; edited 1 time in total |
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21518
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 8:06 am Post subject: Re: Comment/opinion on these brake components |
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Heat the caliper a little with a torch. Then soak them with PB blaster or with 50/50 acetone and ATF. Give the caliper a few sharp raps on the outside and then apply air or grease pump again. Repeat.
If it budges just a little and seizes....thats good. Soak it with penetrating oil around the piston asnd push the piston back in. It will carry some oil with it. Ray |
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tomfreo
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Joined: May 24, 2009
Posts: 373
Location: Western Australia
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| Posted: Thu Dec 28, 2017 7:50 pm Post subject: Re: Comment/opinion on these brake components |
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I damaged one of the calipers in my feeble attempts at restoring it. I ordered two new TRW/Varga calipers.
The calipers look OK. The rubber holding the pistons in place, fully retracted, looks good and tight. See where a VW symbol (and Audi?) has been removed?
However, the pistons don't have that cutout on their face like my originals. I don't see any way, or point, to install the brake pad piston 'shims'. I'm concerned about losing the functionality of brake pad 'shims' (anti-squeal? even wear?)
Someone mentioned elsewhere RTV silicon on the backs of the brake pads to stop squealing. You think I should go down to FLAPS and ask about these products?
BTW anyone know anything about Norflex hoses?
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21518
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 7:41 am Post subject: Re: Comment/opinion on these brake components |
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| tomfreo wrote: |
I damaged one of the calipers in my feeble attempts at restoring it. I ordered two new TRW/Varga calipers.
The calipers look OK. The rubber holding the pistons in place, fully retracted, looks good and tight. See where a VW symbol (and Audi?) has been removed?
However, the pistons don't have that cutout on their face like my originals. I don't see any way, or point, to install the brake pad piston 'shims'. I'm concerned about losing the functionality of brake pad 'shims' (anti-squeal? even wear?)
Someone mentioned elsewhere RTV silicon on the backs of the brake pads to stop squealing. You think I should go down to FLAPS and ask about these products?
BTW anyone know anything about Norflex hoses?
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In what way did you damage the old calipers?
Short of breaking off a mounting ear or actually scratching up the piston deeply.....Its hard to imagine generally destroying one beyond rebuild ability.
Yeah.....modern caliper piston in your new ones. Designed to be used with modern pads with the anti-rattle spring rivetted to the back of the pad.
Silicone...works ok.....but the first few long mountain passes you go through can burn off even Permatex Ultra copper.
The two best anti-squeel products I have used are the Permatex anti-squeal spray and the pinkish orange CRC anti-squeel paste in the squeeze bottle.
Both are technically an adhesive elastomer.
But.....be careful. There are LOTS of anti-squeel products out there.....and the name is poorly applied to some.
There are two types.....the adhesive type I just mentioned that forms a thin, high temp traction film between pad and piston to keep the pad crom oscillating and causing a squeal at the rotor. These are ehat you want
.....and the other type when you finally read the technical data sheets.....are lubricants designed to go on modern sliding type caliper pads.....just on the ends where they hook into the caliper frame. These are not what you want.
Ray |
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tomfreo
Samba Member
Joined: May 24, 2009
Posts: 373
Location: Western Australia
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| Posted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 7:31 pm Post subject: Re: Comment/opinion on these brake components |
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I chipped off a bit of the rim of one of the pistons.
The pads I got at the same time as the new calipers don't appear to have anything like an anti-rattle spring riveted onto the back of them. They're these here.
Is this a problem?
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Abscate
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Joined: October 05, 2014
Posts: 22665
Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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| Posted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 7:42 pm Post subject: Re: Comment/opinion on these brake components |
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Post up a picture of the piston chip. My guess is it isn't important
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tomfreo
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Joined: May 24, 2009
Posts: 373
Location: Western Australia
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| Posted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 8:35 pm Post subject: Re: Comment/opinion on these brake components |
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Here's a pic of the piston.
While I'd be interested to hear opinion on whether the caliper is still ok, at the moment I'm more interested in getting these new calipers installed and the bus running again.
I had the bus parked out the back of my place, a real pain in the ass to get maneuvered into but the only flat paved area I have. I had the bus jacked up, both wheels off the front, one of the calipers removed. And then a frickin tree comes down on top of the bus. Luckily it must have happened in slow motion - no damage. But I had to cut the bus out from under the tree, move the bus, and get rid of the rest of the tree. I'm about ready now to put the bus back and just get these brakes done.
If the concensus is that the piston's ok, I might consider taking them to a shop to have the pistons popped out, buy a seal kit and then, what? hang on to them, sell them on, replace the 'new' ones in case they turn out shit?
But really, I'd just like to know whether I'm likely to have problems using these new calipers with the pads linked. 
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21518
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 8:38 pm Post subject: Re: Comment/opinion on these brake components |
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| tomfreo wrote: |
I chipped off a bit of the rim of one of the pistons.
The pads I got at the same time as the new calipers don't appear to have anything like an anti-rattle spring riveted onto the back of them. They're these here.
Is this a problem? |
Totally not important. A whole lot of cores are this way. I file tbose edges smooth.....then snap on the boot and give it a thin bead of any of the permatex ultras go adhere it to the piston. Let it dry before lubing the piston with brake paste and installing. It will last 70k miles. Then just clean it off, reapply and drive on.
Really....at 70-80k miles or 5-7 years.....just spend $20 bucks each and rebuild your calipers before they are crapped out, seized up and rusted.....and its simple and they last forever.
Ray |
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kreemoweet
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Joined: March 13, 2008
Posts: 3899
Location: Seattle, WA
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| Posted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 8:46 pm Post subject: Re: Comment/opinion on these brake components |
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The Girling versions of bus calipers has flat pistons just like your new ones do. You could modify your old ATE shim plates
to the same configuration as the Girling ones shown below. I don't think the arrow or the notch on those plates are of any
functional importance, and could be dispensed with.
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21518
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 9:28 pm Post subject: Re: Comment/opinion on these brake components |
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From your picture.....that damage is nothing...really. just sand or file the edges amooth ao it does not cut the boot on install.
I have run many calipers with the whole thin flange cracked or ground off. It makes mo functional difference. Ray |
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tomfreo
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Posts: 373
Location: Western Australia
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| Posted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 10:42 pm Post subject: Re: Comment/opinion on these brake components |
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Thanks for the advice about the 'damaged' piston. At the moment I think I'll go with the new ones I've got with the intention of cleaning up the original set. (It might have been different had I a simple way of popping out the pistons ...)
If I were to fit the original 'shims' to these new calipers, what function would they serve?
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21518
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 8:45 am Post subject: Re: Comment/opinion on these brake components |
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| kreemoweet wrote: |
The Girling versions of bus calipers has flat pistons just like your new ones do. You could modify your old ATE shim plates
to the same configuration as the Girling ones shown below. I don't think the arrow or the notch on those plates are of any
functional importance, and could be dispensed with.
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Yes....the arrows and notches ARE of funtional importance. They note the rotor rotation....and therefore point out the correct position of the shim. The ATE caliper shims on the pistons with cut outs....also have a specific position if they are going to work properly.
The round holes or notches are there to allow the bend to be sharp without creating a stress riser.
The triangular notch.....you are probably correct.....is not important to function. I may be wrong but it looks like the type of notch used to register the flat blank on the stamping machine that punches and bends it. Ray |
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guitarman63mm
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Joined: September 03, 2008
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Location: Asheville, NC
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| Posted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 4:36 pm Post subject: Re: Comment/opinion on these brake components |
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Is it really worth your time to rebuild calipers given that the $40 calipers at a FLAPS have lifetime warranties?
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21518
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 5:18 pm Post subject: Re: Comment/opinion on these brake components |
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| guitarman63mm wrote: |
| Is it really worth your time to rebuild calipers given that the $40 calipers at a FLAPS have lifetime warranties? |
From what I have seen inside of most of them......Yes. And......It does not take much time.
The lifetime warranties from FLAPS.... are worthless. You must realize that in most cases....there is no way to offer that "lifetime" warranty.....unless the parts are ungodly cheap and crappy in the first place.
If your caliper fails when you are driving....what good is a lifetime warranty? Too many times with low price rebuilds....years ago before I started rebuilding all of mine....I found that poor cleaning, parts mis-matches, and passing parts along that are deteriorated outside of spec...causes calipers that do not expand or retract at the same rate and are too many time.... the main cause of sticky calipers, dragging calipers or unbalanced braking.
They have only gotten worse these days.....as the cores they have access to are 40+ years old now.
The vast majority....not all.....but most ......of the rebuilt calipers on the market have a range of problems......oversized bores.....in itself not a bad thing....but unless you disassemble and measure....its not uncommon to get one caliper with a stock sized bore and one with an oversized bore.....and proprietary non replaceable seals....and its common to find ATE type calipers that still have 45 year old caliper half seals..... ....that eventually seep from the machined surface.
Pitted or rusted pistons......cylinder wall pits that cross over the seal groove and should have been replated or discarded, poor quality bleeder screws and hardware, paint okn sealing surfaces......a whole range of sloppiness.
Also....most are filthy inside....and master cylinders made in the 3rd world are tge same issues...new or rebuilt.
I make it a practice to disassemble and clean every caliper, wheel cylinder and master cylinder I buy for any car. Wash with denatured alcohol over a clean shop towel. You would be stunned at the grit and crap that comes out.
The only moderately cheap new calipers that I will buy.... are those made on new castings and are properly plated....like Centric.
You get what you pay for. Dont cheap out on brakes. Either rebuild them yourself using yood practices.....simple actually.....or have a person of known quality do it for you..... or simply buy NEW calipers....which are generally not hard to find. Ray |
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Abscate
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Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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| Posted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 7:25 pm Post subject: Re: Comment/opinion on these brake components |
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It’s hell getting old Ray. I remember having a “rebuilt “ATE caliper in my hand priced at $17 and thinking “how much work could have gone into this if retail is $17?”
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lil-jinx
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