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Tom Powell Samba Member
Joined: December 01, 2005 Posts: 4855 Location: Kaneohe
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Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2017 2:40 pm Post subject: Re: Onto my 4th Engine in 6 months |
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Stuartzickefoose wrote: |
good luck checking full advance with a t1...unless you have a 360* pulley. this isnt a t4 with a scale guys? |
Not sure of the exact number, but I believe that 2" clockwise on the circumference from TDC is 30º BTDC on an early bay OG pulley. You can make a notch there and paint it white like I did and use an inductive timing light or use a digital timing light and TDC. The caveat for both is finding TDC. DBM has a rant on how to find TDC properly.
Aloha
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SGKent Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007 Posts: 41031 Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2017 3:10 pm Post subject: Re: Onto my 4th Engine in 6 months |
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you can print a degree wheel online and size it to fit the pulley size. Line zero up and make a mark at 29-30 degrees. Google "degree wheel" then go to images _________________ “Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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Stuartzickefoose Samba Post Whore
Joined: February 07, 2008 Posts: 10350 Location: SoCal for now...
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Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2017 3:36 pm Post subject: Re: Onto my 4th Engine in 6 months |
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i personally dont care if its possible, but i know if this is his FIRST BUS, hes probably not gonna know that. just gut checking all you senior professional keyboard, and actual, mechanics out there....if his engine looks stock, his engine WONT have a 30* mark to line up. so dont send him chasing a unicorn
*end of rant, i havent had my chocolate yet today _________________ Stuart Zickefoose
2011 Jetta Sportwagen TDi 6 speed manual
206-841-7324
[email protected] |
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williamM Samba Member
Joined: August 07, 2008 Posts: 4333 Location: southwest Arizona
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Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 7:15 am Post subject: Re: Onto my 4th Engine in 6 months |
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a decent timing light with a dial can find the spot if set to 28* and then adjust the TDC mark to zero.- Its a great tool for separating vac from mechanical advance also- _________________ some days I get up and just sit and think. Some days I just sit.
opinion untempered by fact is ignorance.
Don't step in any! |
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airschooled Air-Schooled
Joined: April 04, 2012 Posts: 12722 Location: on a bike ride somewhere
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Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 8:30 am Post subject: Re: Onto my 4th Engine in 6 months |
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Abscate wrote: |
Wasn't that scale originally a Type 3 part? |
ZING!!!!!!
Robbie _________________ Learn how your vintage VW works. And why it doesn't!
One-on-one tech help for your Volkswagen:
www.airschooled.com |
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SGKent Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007 Posts: 41031 Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 8:36 am Post subject: Re: Onto my 4th Engine in 6 months |
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Stuartzickefoose wrote: |
i personally dont care if its possible, but i know if this is his FIRST BUS, hes probably not gonna know that. just gut checking all you senior professional keyboard, and actual, mechanics out there....if his engine looks stock, his engine WONT have a 30* mark to line up. so dont send him chasing a unicorn
*end of rant, i havent had my chocolate yet today |
Stuart - You can print a degree wheel like this out the same size as the stock pulley, cut it out with scissors, put the engine on TDC, line -0- up with the engine pulley TDC mark, and then mark where 29 - 30 degrees BTDC is. Then time full in at RPM with a timing light.
_________________ “Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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AircooledHome Samba Member
Joined: October 13, 2015 Posts: 273 Location: California
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Posted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 12:24 am Post subject: Re: Onto my 4th Engine in 6 months |
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Hello..
Last week I was ready to buy some Weber IDF 40s for my 1776. I was told by multiple professionals locally that 44 IDFs are "too much carb" for a 1776. SO I decided, since nearly no dellortos or webers are for sale within my budget, I would just go with single barrel dual kadrons.
I found a set of Dellorto 40's for sale, and was nearly ready to buy them.. When I read this page again:
http://www.aircooled.net/vw-carburetor-options-selection-101/
And realized that "... note that the DRLA carb sizing is 1 step larger than the equivalent Weber. "
Does that mean that the 40 Dellorto duals are 45s, and too big for my 1776?
Thanks _________________ '71 Deluxe Bus - http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=659421&highlight= |
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AircooledHome Samba Member
Joined: October 13, 2015 Posts: 273 Location: California
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Posted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 12:28 am Post subject: Re: Onto my 4th Engine in 6 months |
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Stuartzickefoose wrote: |
i personally dont care if its possible, but i know if this is his FIRST BUS, hes probably not gonna know that. just gut checking all you senior professional keyboard, and actual, mechanics out there....if his engine looks stock, his engine WONT have a 30* mark to line up. so dont send him chasing a unicorn
*end of rant, i havent had my chocolate yet today |
I have a degree pulley and this is not my first bus.. nor my first, second or third engine setup. I read and was told to set timing at full advance when running a 009 dizzy.. That could be wrong? _________________ '71 Deluxe Bus - http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=659421&highlight= |
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Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50348
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Posted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 5:59 am Post subject: Re: Onto my 4th Engine in 6 months |
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AircooledHome wrote: |
I read and was told to set timing at full advance when running a 009 dizzy. That could be wrong? |
Since aftermarket 009's vary in the amount of advance they give, if you set the timing either at idle or statically, the timing at speed will not necessarily be the same from dizzy to dizzy. If you want to know that you have the correct timing under full load full rpm conditions you need to set it at full mechanical advance, 28-30° BTDC @ 3500+ rpm. |
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telford dorr Samba Member
Joined: March 11, 2009 Posts: 3555 Location: San Diego (Encinitas)
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Posted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 12:08 pm Post subject: Re: Onto my 4th Engine in 6 months |
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Ages ago, shops used to have distributor machines. Wonderful devices. They allow you to test and adjust your distributor so that the advance curve is correct. If you can find a shop that still has one, you can get your distributor set up correctly.
The second problem is, what does the timing mark on the pulley actually mean? Is it at 7.5 deg advanced? is it at 5 deg retarded? Is it somewhere in between? Pulleys vary from year to year. Odds are, the pulley might not even be for the year bus its attached to. The only way to know is to test it - which is hard on an assembled engine. But since this mark is the baseline for your full advance measurement, you kinda gotta know what it represents.
Buying a quality degreed pulley solves this problem... _________________ '71 panel, now with FI
'Experience' is the ability to recognize a mistake when you're making it again - Franklin P. Jones
In theory, theory works in practice; in practice, it doesn't - William T. Harbaugh
When you're dead, you don't know you're dead. The pain is only felt by others.
Same thing happens when you're stupid. - Philippe Geluck
More VW electrical at http://telforddorr.com/ (available 9am to 9pm PST) |
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21518 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 12:54 pm Post subject: Re: Onto my 4th Engine in 6 months |
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telford dorr wrote: |
Ages ago, shops used to have distributor machines. Wonderful devices. They allow you to test and adjust your distributor so that the advance curve is correct. If you can find a shop that still has one, you can get your distributor set up correctly.
The second problem is, what does the timing mark on the pulley actually mean? Is it at 7.5 deg advanced? is it at 5 deg retarded? Is it somewhere in between? Pulleys vary from year to year. Odds are, the pulley might not even be for the year bus its attached to. The only way to know is to test it - which is hard on an assembled engine. But since this mark is the baseline for your full advance measurement, you kinda gotta know what it represents.
Buying a quality degreed pulley solves this problem... |
Very well said.....and I know my comment will not help people working on an assembled engine....but knowing "exactly" what the timing mark is why for some time now...when I build engines....one of the mock up stages I do....is at least one piston with rod on each bank (no rings) in a well greased cylinder...heads on with light checking springs and pushrods, lifters and cam in case.
Turning a few slow revolutions...mapping exact TDC on each cylinder to the fan timing ring....valve opening points and generally mapping the camshaft (also necessary since I work on D-jet where the injection timing is directly slaved to the cam)...goes a long way toward knowing what actual timing idiosyncrasies your engine is likely to have when you are timing and tuning it. Ray |
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AircooledHome Samba Member
Joined: October 13, 2015 Posts: 273 Location: California
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Posted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 3:54 pm Post subject: Re: Onto my 4th Engine in 6 months |
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AircooledHome wrote: |
Hello..
Last week I was ready to buy some Weber IDF 40s for my 1776. I was told by multiple professionals locally that 44 IDFs are "too much carb" for a 1776. SO I decided, since nearly no dellortos or webers are for sale within my budget, I would just go with single barrel dual kadrons.
I found a set of Dellorto 40's for sale, and was nearly ready to buy them.. When I read this page again:
http://www.aircooled.net/vw-carburetor-options-selection-101/
And realized that "... note that the DRLA carb sizing is 1 step larger than the equivalent Weber. "
Does that mean that the 40 Dellorto duals are 45s, and too big for my 1776?
Thanks |
Any thoughts on this? _________________ '71 Deluxe Bus - http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=659421&highlight= |
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aeromech Samba Member
Joined: January 24, 2006 Posts: 16970 Location: San Diego, California
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Posted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 9:44 pm Post subject: Re: Onto my 4th Engine in 6 months |
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AircooledHome wrote: |
AircooledHome wrote: |
Hello..
Last week I was ready to buy some Weber IDF 40s for my 1776. I was told by multiple professionals locally that 44 IDFs are "too much carb" for a 1776. SO I decided, since nearly no dellortos or webers are for sale within my budget, I would just go with single barrel dual kadrons.
I found a set of Dellorto 40's for sale, and was nearly ready to buy them.. When I read this page again:
http://www.aircooled.net/vw-carburetor-options-selection-101/
And realized that "... note that the DRLA carb sizing is 1 step larger than the equivalent Weber. "
Does that mean that the 40 Dellorto duals are 45s, and too big for my 1776?
Thanks |
Any thoughts on this? |
Yes, it means that a set of DRLA Delloto carbs in size 40 flow the equivalent of a set of 42 Weber’s. A set of 42 Dells flow the same as a set of 44 Weber’s. _________________ Lead Mechanic: San Diego Air and Space Museum
Licensed Airframe and Powerplant Mechanic
Licensed Pilot (Single engine Land)
Boeing 727,737-200-300-400,757,767
Airbus A319,320,321
DC9/MD80
BAe146
Fokker F28/F100
VW type 1 1962,63,65,69,72
VW Type 2 1971 (3 ea.) 1978, 1969
VW Jetta
VW Passat
Capable of leaping tall buildings in a single bound |
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Spike0180 Samba Member
Joined: June 06, 2015 Posts: 2269 Location: Detroit, Michigan
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Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:07 am Post subject: Re: Onto my 4th Engine in 6 months |
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Second, to keep looking for a smaller carb setup. What kind of cam do you have in this 1776? Exhaust? Stock crank? What are the specs, they matter. _________________ Brutis Patches Izabich: 1970 VW Transporter - 1776cc DP
Current State: Projects never truly end...
Location: Grosse Pointe, Michigan
Other cars: 2003 F150, 2003 Jetta GLI vr6-6sp
Sambastic: adj; the quality of being nit picky, elitist, expecting everyone to do things the way they believe is best with no regard to situation, "sambastic" |
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AircooledHome Samba Member
Joined: October 13, 2015 Posts: 273 Location: California
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Posted: Wed Dec 27, 2017 11:57 pm Post subject: Re: Onto my 4th Engine in 6 months |
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Spike0180 wrote: |
Second, to keep looking for a smaller carb setup. What kind of cam do you have in this 1776? Exhaust? Stock crank? What are the specs, they matter. |
the cam is a 280 deg. dur. with -.330 lobe lift.
The exhaust is going to be a Vintage Speed stainless exhaust I think.
Stock crank.
I went with the Dellorto 40s, with 30 venturies in them.. After much deliberation, "JHayden" and I sent a few Pm's back and forth and With his experience.. with 30 vents in 40 carbs I essentially have 36's.. _________________ '71 Deluxe Bus - http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=659421&highlight= |
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Spike0180 Samba Member
Joined: June 06, 2015 Posts: 2269 Location: Detroit, Michigan
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Posted: Thu Dec 28, 2017 8:19 pm Post subject: Re: Onto my 4th Engine in 6 months |
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AircooledHome wrote: |
Spike0180 wrote: |
Second, to keep looking for a smaller carb setup. What kind of cam do you have in this 1776? Exhaust? Stock crank? What are the specs, they matter. |
the cam is a 280 deg. dur. with -.330 lobe lift.
The exhaust is going to be a Vintage Speed stainless exhaust I think.
Stock crank.
I went with the Dellorto 40s, with 30 venturies in them.. After much deliberation, "JHayden" and I sent a few Pm's back and forth and With his experience.. with 30 vents in 40 carbs I essentially have 36's.. |
Sounds like a good setup. Idk about the centuries, but that sounds like it's probably a pretty big cam, between a Engle 100 and 110. Best to go to duals. _________________ Brutis Patches Izabich: 1970 VW Transporter - 1776cc DP
Current State: Projects never truly end...
Location: Grosse Pointe, Michigan
Other cars: 2003 F150, 2003 Jetta GLI vr6-6sp
Sambastic: adj; the quality of being nit picky, elitist, expecting everyone to do things the way they believe is best with no regard to situation, "sambastic" |
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AircooledHome Samba Member
Joined: October 13, 2015 Posts: 273 Location: California
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Posted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 2:41 pm Post subject: Re: Onto my 4th Engine in 6 months |
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Spike0180 wrote: |
AircooledHome wrote: |
Spike0180 wrote: |
Second, to keep looking for a smaller carb setup. What kind of cam do you have in this 1776? Exhaust? Stock crank? What are the specs, they matter. |
the cam is a 280 deg. dur. with -.330 lobe lift.
The exhaust is going to be a Vintage Speed stainless exhaust I think.
Stock crank.
I went with the Dellorto 40s, with 30 venturies in them.. After much deliberation, "JHayden" and I sent a few Pm's back and forth and With his experience.. with 30 vents in 40 carbs I essentially have 36's.. |
Sounds like a good setup. Idk about the centuries, but that sounds like it's probably a pretty big cam, between a Engle 100 and 110. Best to go to duals. |
I believe its a re-ground core cam like a stock one? I'm not sure how that works. _________________ '71 Deluxe Bus - http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=659421&highlight= |
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scubaseas Samba Member
Joined: May 24, 2013 Posts: 442 Location: ME & Texas, in a Bus or on a boat somewhere
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Posted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 6:48 pm Post subject: Re: Onto my 4th Engine in 6 months |
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Interesting thread. I came by my Bus after three owners and at least five engines. Solved the issues of over heating that were killing the engines (missing tin, a "power pulley" and bad oil cooler & location) but can tell you three things every T1 Bus should have if you are concerned about longevity:
Oil Pressure Gauge (0-80psi)
Oil Temperature Gauge (located in oil flow)
Cylinder Head Temperature Gauge (Dakota Digital on #3 plug works well)
If you have these three you can drive it up to the point of destruction. Without them you are doomed to keep eating engines unless you can drive 55 mph or less and take it easy on hills. And hopefully you have the right tin. the right pulley, timed right, right deck height, right compression, right fuel, right timing curve, right mixture, etc etc. If you ignore the three gauges you can easily blow up even the best of rebuilds. Especially if you drive 65+mph in 85*F+ temps.
You would be well served by checking the air/fuel ratio to make sure you are not in the "death zone" and running way too hot. Tuning the carb means getting the right jets to have it be around 12.8 to 13.6 A/F ratio at wide open throttle. If it's 14.0:1 (death zone) it will raise your head temps by quite a bit. Even as small as 5 size off (like 150 versus 155 main) will make big difference in it running hot at speed. Having it tuned right and timed right are essential to have it last.
I doubt that weight is an issue on your Bus. I would bet my Westphalia all loaded up is heavier. Certainly doesn't help it though. Put in a cylinder head temp gauge and you will be surprised how much even small changes in timing and mixture effect head temperatures. _________________ Al
08/1970 T2a Westphalia owned since 1980
ASE Master certification. 50 years pushing a wrench
Retired |
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scubaseas Samba Member
Joined: May 24, 2013 Posts: 442 Location: ME & Texas, in a Bus or on a boat somewhere
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Posted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 8:21 pm Post subject: Re: Onto my 4th Engine in 6 months |
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Quote: |
the cam is a 280 deg. dur. with -.330 lobe lift.
The exhaust is going to be a Vintage Speed stainless exhaust I think.
Stock crank. |
Quote: |
I went with the Dellorto 40s, with 30 venturies in them.. After much deliberation, "JHayden" and I sent a few Pm's back and forth and With his experience.. with 30 vents in 40 carbs I essentially have 36's..
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Carbs are OK if you have stock valves with the 30 venturis. 3-5mm smaller on the venturis than the intakes (35.5mm stock) is a good rule for a daily driver/heavy car. Less for performance oriented engines. The duration on your cam is fine but it's not a lot of lift. Maybe run 1.25:1 rockers if your springs and cam can handle it. A great Bus cam is Webcam 218 280 duration with .460 lift. Dual 2 bbls will be fine with a stock engine. Don't go too big on your exhaust with stock valves and mild cam. 1 3/8 max exhaust will work fine for stock heads. Too big and you start to loose torque. _________________ Al
08/1970 T2a Westphalia owned since 1980
ASE Master certification. 50 years pushing a wrench
Retired |
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AircooledHome Samba Member
Joined: October 13, 2015 Posts: 273 Location: California
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Posted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 4:13 am Post subject: Re: Onto my 4th Engine in 6 months |
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scubaseas wrote: |
Interesting thread. I came by my Bus after three owners and at least five engines. Solved the issues of over heating that were killing the engines (missing tin, a "power pulley" and bad oil cooler & location) but can tell you three things every T1 Bus should have if you are concerned about longevity:
Oil Pressure Gauge (0-80psi)
Oil Temperature Gauge (located in oil flow)
Cylinder Head Temperature Gauge (Dakota Digital on #3 plug works well)
If you have these three you can drive it up to the point of destruction. Without them you are doomed to keep eating engines unless you can drive 55 mph or less and take it easy on hills. And hopefully you have the right tin. the right pulley, timed right, right deck height, right compression, right fuel, right timing curve, right mixture, etc etc. If you ignore the three gauges you can easily blow up even the best of rebuilds. Especially if you drive 65+mph in 85*F+ temps.
You would be well served by checking the air/fuel ratio to make sure you are not in the "death zone" and running way too hot. Tuning the carb means getting the right jets to have it be around 12.8 to 13.6 A/F ratio at wide open throttle. If it's 14.0:1 (death zone) it will raise your head temps by quite a bit. Even as small as 5 size off (like 150 versus 155 main) will make big difference in it running hot at speed. Having it tuned right and timed right are essential to have it last.
I doubt that weight is an issue on your Bus. I would bet my Westphalia all loaded up is heavier. Certainly doesn't help it though. Put in a cylinder head temp gauge and you will be surprised how much even small changes in timing and mixture effect head temperatures. |
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Hey man you have a alot of good info in your post here...
I guess ill preface by saying I have all the tins, except one that I was confusaed on,., the most rear tin that sits above the bell-housing- I only had the Bug tin installed. Beyond that I Didn't have any tin-issues.
no power pulley...
For this new engine I am going to do Oil temp and Head temp. for oil pressure its just an attachment deal that bulks the oil pressure sender unit?
I agree that the weight shan't be a problem.. _________________ '71 Deluxe Bus - http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=659421&highlight= |
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