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herbie1200
Samba Member
Joined: April 27, 2006
Posts: 833
Location: Rome - Italy
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 Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 12:32 am Post subject: Re: stock Air cleaner setup to fit in1600cc engine, 1960 body? |
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| mukluk wrote: |
| herbie1200 wrote: |
| The 1200 air filter has a very low section, a 1600cc is "choked" with that filter: low performance and rich running. |
Based on personal experience, I would disagree with this assessment. The 1600SP in my 1960, equipped with a 1200 oil bath, has performance sufficient to exceed 80mph and gets at least 30mpg on the highway.
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My full stock 1200 does 78mph.
Your 1600SP arrangement probably is limited by gear ratios and stock air filter.
My tought: VW has developed a new air filter and a new (larger) intake manifold for the passage 1200 --> 1500 engine, with associated costs of design/production/storage as different part.
So air restriction due to 1200 air filter has been taken into account when developing 1500 engine.
On a 1600 engine the issue is greater. |
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tisius
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Joined: July 11, 2011
Posts: 1570
Location: Rotterdam,NL (+Chicago,IL)
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| Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 6:53 am Post subject: Re: stock Air cleaner setup to fit in1600cc engine, 1960 body? |
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 I just gotta ask....
Why do you want a stock air cleaner, when you have a larger engine with several aftermarket pieces on it (so it currently has a custom look anyway)?
A paper filter let's the engine breath better, and you don't have to mess with oil. and potential clearance issues.
What made you decide to want a stock air cleaner?
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you don't have to be crazy to be into VW's, but it sure helps!!
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flyboy161
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Joined: December 26, 2009
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Location: Perry, GA
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mukluk
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Joined: October 18, 2012
Posts: 7028
Location: Clyde, TX
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| Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:58 am Post subject: Re: stock Air cleaner setup to fit in1600cc engine, 1960 body? |
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| herbie1200 wrote: |
My full stock 1200 does 78mph.
Your 1600SP arrangement probably is limited by gear ratios and stock air filter.
My tought: VW has developed a new air filter and a new (larger) intake manifold for the passage 1200 --> 1500 engine, with associated costs of design/production/storage as different part.
So air restriction due to 1200 air filter has been taken into account when developing 1500 engine.
On a 1600 engine the issue is greater. |
Fist off, congratulations on having a car that exceeds factory specs for top speed of a 1200 by 6mph. It's always pleasing to me to hear people still running older stock engines and doing very well with them.
Factory spec for maximum speed for a 1600SP Bug was 81mph. I've had mine up to 90mph, and I would be rather surprised if the 1200 oil bath was preventing it from going faster. If anything, I'm limited by the 4.37 gearing I have in the trans and my personal desire not to cause damage from excessive rpms on a mostly stock 1600SP.
Since there isn't anything plainly stated that I'm aware of regarding the justification behind VW going to the larger air filter on the 1500, added to first hand experience that the smaller air filter functions satisfactorily on the 1600, we'd best chalk up reasoning for such from all parties as theories or opinions. My personal theory is the larger air filter was developed and used primarily due to the larger filtering capacity, ie, it didn't require to be serviced as frequently in very dusty environments as the smaller filter. The problem wasn't the smaller oil bath couldn't handle the increased air volume requirements of the engine (as evidenced by first hand observation), but that more frequent servicing would be needed than desired by VW who was largely selling the car based on its economy and low maintenance requirements relative to other vehicles.
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1960 Ragtop w/Semaphores "Inga" |
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rcooled
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Joined: September 20, 2008
Posts: 2507
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
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| Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:10 pm Post subject: Re: stock Air cleaner setup to fit in1600cc engine, 1960 body? |
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| herbie1200 wrote: |
I do not agree with using a 1200 air filter with a 1600cc engine.
The 1200 air filter has a very low section, a 1600cc is "chocked" with that filter: low performance and rich running.
Look into a 1200 air filter inlet from the moving flap: when the flap is down the section is very narrow because flap lays down on preheat tube connection.
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The limiting factor as to how much air a stock 1600 D/P can ingest at any given RPM is the carburetor's venturi diameter. A stock 34PICT-3 carb has a 26mm venturi with a cross-section area of .82 sq. in. The 'horn' on a stock 40HP air cleaner, with the flap fully open, has a cross-section area of 1.37 sq. in. at its most restrictive point. More than enough not to choke off air flow to the engine.
| flyboy161 wrote: |
| The only issue I see is fitting it on a 34PICT. I'm not sure the diameter of the air cleaner throat will fit the throat of the carb. |
The 1200 & 1300cc air cleaners do indeed fit on a 34PICT-3 carburetor.
_________________
'63 Ragtop (current)
'65 Ghia coupe (totaled)
'67 Ghia convertible (current)
'69.5 Ghia convertible and
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herbie1200
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Joined: April 27, 2006
Posts: 833
Location: Rome - Italy
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| Posted: Tue Dec 19, 2017 12:16 am Post subject: Re: stock Air cleaner setup to fit in1600cc engine, 1960 body? |
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| mukluk wrote: |
Fist off, congratulations on having a car that exceeds factory specs for top speed of a 1200 by 6mph. It's always pleasing to me to hear people still running older stock engines and doing very well with them. |
Thank you for compliments; engine is not completely stock: heads and pistons are from a Mexico (more CR); ignition is electronic with a SVDA; and I use 95 octane fuel, where original beetle engines are tested with 82 octane fuel, so I can give a couple of more degrees in advance; and I use 165/15 rear tires instead of 155/15 so transmission ratio is a little longer.
| mukluk wrote: |
| ... My personal theory is the larger air filter was developed and used primarily due to the larger filtering capacity, ie, it didn't require to be serviced as frequently in very dusty environments as the smaller filter. The problem wasn't the smaller oil bath couldn't handle the increased air volume requirements of the engine (as evidenced by first hand observation), but that more frequent servicing would be needed than desired by VW who was largely selling the car based on its economy and low maintenance requirements relative to other vehicles. |
You are referring to the "modern" plastic air filter with paper.
I'm referring to the old oil bath 1500 filter, very similar to the 1200 but a little larger inside. |
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herbie1200
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Joined: April 27, 2006
Posts: 833
Location: Rome - Italy
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| Posted: Tue Dec 19, 2017 12:26 am Post subject: Re: stock Air cleaner setup to fit in1600cc engine, 1960 body? |
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| rcooled wrote: |
A stock 34PICT-3 carb has a 26mm venturi with a cross-section area of .82 sq. in. The 'horn' on a stock 40HP air cleaner, with the flap fully open, has a cross-section area of 1.37 sq. in. at its most restrictive point. More than enough not to choke off air flow to the engine.
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To be honest I never measured the 1.37 sq.inches you declare.
In my mind a 1200 has about the half of 1.37 sq.inch because when flap is fully open it does not rest in horizontal position byt lays into a 45° on the lower warm preheat inlet, reducing the theoric area to one half.
Moreover, from a fluidodynamic point of view: air into the venturi is very fast, so the venturi has an aerodinamic shape to enable this fast passage.
But air path into the stock 1200 filter goes through many obstacles: curves, up/down, and the iron "sponge" that should be passed very slow to avoid aerodinamic velocity loss. So the whole air filter assembly should operate at slower speed than into the venturi, and, when talking about air flow, less speed = greater section. |
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mukluk
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Joined: October 18, 2012
Posts: 7028
Location: Clyde, TX
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| Posted: Tue Dec 19, 2017 9:58 am Post subject: Re: stock Air cleaner setup to fit in1600cc engine, 1960 body? |
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| herbie1200 wrote: |
You are referring to the "modern" plastic air filter with paper.
I'm referring to the old oil bath 1500 filter, very similar to the 1200 but a little larger inside. |
Actually, I'm referring to the larger oil bath as used on the 1500 and 1600 engines from 1967 through 1972.
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rcooled
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Joined: September 20, 2008
Posts: 2507
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
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| Posted: Tue Dec 19, 2017 5:47 pm Post subject: Re: stock Air cleaner setup to fit in1600cc engine, 1960 body? |
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| herbie1200 wrote: |
| To be honest I never measured the 1.37 sq.inches you declare. |
Well, I did...in a stock OEM Knecht 40HP air filter in my parts stash.
| herbie1200 wrote: |
| In my mind a 1200 has about the half of 1.37 sq.inch because when flap is fully open it does not rest in horizontal position byt lays into a 45° on the lower warm preheat inlet, reducing the theoric area to one half. |
Not so fast, there. With the flap fully opened and resting on the pre-heat inlet, there's still a 2.1" X .65" rectangular open area above it. That pencils out to right around 1.37 sq. in.
The 'horn' itself has a cross-sectional area of almost 3 sq. in. at the opening.
| herbie1200 wrote: |
| Moreover, from a fluidodynamic point of view: air into the venturi is very fast, so the venturi has an aerodinamic shape to enable this fast passage. |
This is more about the volume of air being allowed into a motor rather than its speed. I was just pointing out that a 40HP air filter seems capable of supplying all the air a 34PICT-3 carburetor can handle. Most stock VW air filters alter the air flow somewhat...some designs more than others. Jetting adjustments may be required once filters start getting swapped around to different motors.
_________________
'63 Ragtop (current)
'65 Ghia coupe (totaled)
'67 Ghia convertible (current)
'69.5 Ghia convertible and
'62, '63, '65, '69 Bugs (all long gone) |
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sonoma_vw
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Joined: May 19, 2013
Posts: 464
Location: Sonoma County
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| Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 12:36 pm Post subject: Re: stock Air cleaner setup to fit in1600cc engine, 1960 body? |
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| tisius wrote: |
I just gotta ask....
Why do you want a stock air cleaner, when you have a larger engine with several aftermarket pieces on it (so it currently has a custom look anyway)?
A paper filter let's the engine breath better, and you don't have to mess with oil. and potential clearance issues.
What made you decide to want a stock air cleaner? |
The reason: I've been trying to return the car to a stock (ok, stock 1600ish) set up, starting with removing the chrome tin. Guess I can deal with the paper air cleaner. But the whole package is frustrating to look at. It seems the bottom engine bay tin surrounds have been sloppily cut to jam the 1600 into the 1960 engine bay.  Is this a known size issue getting 1600's into a '60 bay? (or was a PO/mechanic just whacked?)
| rcooled wrote: |
The 1200 & 1300cc air cleaners do indeed fit on a 34PICT-3 carburetor. |
Thank you very much!  |
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caleb0101
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Joined: August 26, 2014
Posts: 524
Location: Bristol Connecticut
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| Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 2:46 pm Post subject: Re: stock Air cleaner setup to fit in1600cc engine, 1960 body? |
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| sonoma_vw wrote: |
Based on personal experience, I would disagree with this assessment. The 1600SP in my 1960, equipped with a 1200 oil bath, has performance sufficient to exceed 80mph and gets at least 30mpg on the highway.
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this setup works fine on my 1641 dualport in my 60 and the decklid closes fine
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Ruby red 1967 beetle sedan with a 2021cc
1967 beetle sedan baja project
April 60 euro spec ragtop beetle with a 1641cc
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Q-Dog
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Joined: April 05, 2010
Posts: 8700
Location: Sunset, Louisiana
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| Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 3:23 pm Post subject: Re: stock Air cleaner setup to fit in1600cc engine, 1960 body? |
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It would be interesting to see if the filtering ability of a small oil-bath air cleaner changes as air speed increases. Sure, the small filter can move more air, but can it filter more air?
I wonder why VW engineers made the filters bigger as they made the engines bigger?
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Brian
'69 Dune Buggy
'69 Beetle Convertible
'70 Beetle |
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EVfun
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Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 5:17 pm Post subject: Re: stock Air cleaner setup to fit in1600cc engine, 1960 body? |
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Looking the changes VW made I think it's clear it was enlarged for more than to increase the service interval. If that was the reason the snorkel would not have needed to change until smog standards pushed for excess heat. I don't doubt a 1200 air filter will work, but clearly VW decided that reduced filter constriction was desireable.
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| As a general rule, cheap parts are the most expensive parts you can buy. |
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herbie1200
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Joined: April 27, 2006
Posts: 833
Location: Rome - Italy
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| Posted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:31 am Post subject: Re: stock Air cleaner setup to fit in1600cc engine, 1960 body? |
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| EVfun wrote: |
| Looking the changes VW made I think it's clear it was enlarged for more than to increase the service interval. If that was the reason the snorkel would not have needed to change until smog standards pushed for excess heat. I don't doubt a 1200 air filter will work, but clearly VW decided that reduced filter constriction was desireable. |
Until 1200cc were available (~1975 in Europe) the 1200 had the small oil bath filter while the 1300-1500-1600 the larger one.
If it was only a service interval issue they should put lager filter also on 1200. |
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Q-Dog
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Posts: 8700
Location: Sunset, Louisiana
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| Posted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 6:33 am Post subject: Re: stock Air cleaner setup to fit in1600cc engine, 1960 body? |
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Since the filter relies on the changing direction of airflow within the filter to cause dirt to fall out of the air, I suspect that higher velocities inside may create turbulence that could cause the air to keep the dirt instead of releasing it inside the filter. But that is just my theory and I have no intention of doing the testing to see what is happening or how effective the filters are when the flow increases. Maybe VW already did the testing? Why woukd they design a bigger filter if they didn't need to?
This almost sounds like a masters degree thesis topic.
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'69 Dune Buggy
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caleb0101
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Posts: 524
Location: Bristol Connecticut
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| Posted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 6:35 am Post subject: Re: stock Air cleaner setup to fit in1600cc engine, 1960 body? |
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| Q-Dog wrote: |
It would be interesting to see if the filtering ability of a small oil-bath air cleaner changes as air speed increases. Sure, the small filter can move more air, but can it filter more air?
I wonder why VW engineers made the filters bigger as they made the engines bigger? |
I used to have a filter like the original poster had on my car and once I swapped to the 65 style oil bath filter I noticed a increase in power and better throttle response. After that I swapped to the earlier style with the offset rectangular snout and once again noticed a performance increase. I believe that the smaller oil baths do a better job funneling the air into the carb. I have never had a problem with the filtering capabilities of them with the larger engine.
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Ruby red 1967 beetle sedan with a 2021cc
1967 beetle sedan baja project
April 60 euro spec ragtop beetle with a 1641cc |
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Q-Dog
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Location: Sunset, Louisiana
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| Posted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 7:01 am Post subject: Re: stock Air cleaner setup to fit in1600cc engine, 1960 body? |
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The performance benefits of the built-in velocity stack inside the stock filter are well known. 
How would one know if the filter is removing more dirt or less dirt as the flow increases?
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'69 Dune Buggy
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rcooled
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Location: Santa Cruz, CA
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| Posted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:25 pm Post subject: Re: stock Air cleaner setup to fit in1600cc engine, 1960 body? |
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| Q-Dog wrote: |
| Since the filter relies on the changing direction of airflow within the filter to cause dirt to fall out of the air, I suspect that higher velocities inside may create turbulence that could cause the air to keep the dirt instead of releasing it inside the filter. |
This is a good point...although in actual use, it may be a less of an issue.
Air-cooled VWs were designed with the ability to run flat-out all day long, and at top speed, a 1600cc motor will certainly be drawing in more air than a 1200. But in every-day use, how often is that road car with a 1600 & small air filter going at full tilt?
On a 40HP motor running at top speed, would the air volume passing thru the stock filter be enough to comfortably supply (and properly filter) enough air for a 1600 running at 75% of full throttle? If so, then the stock 40HP filter should easily be capable of handling the needs of a 1600 in normal, every-day driving.
| Q-Dog wrote: |
| This almost sounds like a masters degree thesis topic. |
Yeah, looks like the OP opened a real head-scratcher with this one... 
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'63 Ragtop (current)
'65 Ghia coupe (totaled)
'67 Ghia convertible (current)
'69.5 Ghia convertible and
'62, '63, '65, '69 Bugs (all long gone) |
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61SNRF
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| Posted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 9:12 pm Post subject: Re: stock Air cleaner setup to fit in1600cc engine, 1960 body? |
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Whew!
For practical purposes, in this application a stock US 66 1300 oil bath air cleaner is the best choice for the OP. Easy as pie Factory bolt on update/upgrade.
They have the same filtering capacity as the late model Euro versions pictured above, yet they still have the smaller pre-heat pipe to match early tin.
Many were produced and still plentiful, so one in good order should not be hard to find quickly and reasonably.
P.S.
This very same air cleaner had continued use on 1967 Euro 1300's, so Worldwide there should be no expected shortage either
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tisius
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Location: Rotterdam,NL (+Chicago,IL)
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| Posted: Wed Dec 27, 2017 8:37 am Post subject: Re: stock Air cleaner setup to fit in1600cc engine, 1960 body? |
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| sonoma_vw wrote: |
It seems the bottom engine bay tin surrounds have been sloppily cut to jam the 1600 into the 1960 engine bay. Is this a known size issue getting 1600's into a '60 bay? (or was a PO/mechanic just whacked?)
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Ahah, going back to the stock look  .
Yes That is a common issue, because at some point VW changed the engine bay shape (check a mid 70's bug engine bay compared to yours, then you'll see the difference clearly); that meant different engine tin at that spot.
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drive it like you just robbed the bank
you don't have to be crazy to be into VW's, but it sure helps!!
.... if it ain't dutch, it ain't much! |
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