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equinox Samba Member
Joined: April 23, 2013 Posts: 183 Location: Detroit, MI
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Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 6:14 am Post subject: Neutral Safety Switch?? - URGENT |
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When my '77 T2 bus engine dies, it willnot allow me to just put it up 1 notch on the automatic trans and start in neutral. I have to come to a COMPLETE stop, put the level in Park, start it, then put in drive again and go!
This is very, very dangerous. I have heard there may be some sort o neutral safety switch orsomething in the lever??
Can anyone shed some light on this and also how to defeat it? Again, if this was in the design, it is a HORRIBLE idea for me to be going down a road or highway at 50MPH or whataver and then having to stop in the middle fo the street!! :O
Please advise and thanks in advance. |
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ccpalmer Samba Member
Joined: September 17, 2006 Posts: 3850 Location: Ann Arbor, Michigan
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Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 6:34 am Post subject: Re: Neutral Safety Switch?? - URGENT |
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I think most cars are like that?
I would be looking into why my Bus dies so often. That is the real problem. _________________ '71 Westy |
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Abscate Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014 Posts: 22639 Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 6:41 am Post subject: Re: Neutral Safety Switch?? - URGENT |
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I believe it is the design but if your engine is stalling at speed that’s the thing to focus on as dangerous _________________ .ssS! |
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pioneer1 Samba Member
Joined: February 11, 2008 Posts: 2068 Location: Ontario Canada
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Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 6:55 am Post subject: Re: Neutral Safety Switch?? - URGENT |
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Check the Bently diagram for the shifter. There is a Teflon bar with contacts that wears out. Perhaps the contact for neutral is pooched _________________ "Always waiting for tomorrow ruined everything"
'85 Porsche 911 Targa
'76 Westfalia project |
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Amskeptic Samba Member
Joined: October 18, 2002 Posts: 8568 Location: All Across The Country
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Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 7:51 am Post subject: Re: Neutral Safety Switch?? - URGENT |
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There is an adjustable "contact plate" under the shifter housing in the cabin that allows you to start the engine in Park and Neutral. The reverse lights also go through this switch, so you might want to check if the reverse lights come on only in Reverse.
Colin _________________ www.itinerant-air-cooled.com |
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SGKent Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007 Posts: 41031 Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 8:02 am Post subject: Re: Neutral Safety Switch?? - URGENT |
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If by chance the switch is bad, last time I checked, the switch, although long NLA was available as an Echlin part from NAPA Auto Parts. I do agree with all the other here in that the bus should be tuned so it doesn't die so often. Sounds like you have 2 problems - the bus dying and the switch.
NAPA ECH NS6827 (getting rare)
from an older thread on the same switch:
_________________ “Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin
Last edited by SGKent on Wed Jan 03, 2018 12:28 pm; edited 4 times in total |
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sjbartnik Samba Member
Joined: September 01, 2011 Posts: 5994 Location: Brooklyn
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Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 8:39 am Post subject: Re: Neutral Safety Switch?? - URGENT |
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equinox wrote: |
When my '77 T2 bus engine dies, it willnot allow me to just put it up 1 notch on the automatic trans and start in neutral. I have to come to a COMPLETE stop, put the level in Park, start it, then put in drive again and go!
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Your engine should never stall. Fix that. _________________ 1965 Volkswagen 1500 Variant S
2000 Kawasaki W650 |
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danfromsyr Samba Member
Joined: March 01, 2004 Posts: 15143 Location: Syracuse, NY
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Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 9:07 am Post subject: Re: Neutral Safety Switch?? - URGENT |
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I'd bypass the neutral safety switch..
IMO starting up an AT in gear is no different than a standard. both have the potential of driving on start..
and yes. FIX your stalling problem. _________________
Abscate wrote: |
These are the reasons we have words like “wanker” |
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Amskeptic Samba Member
Joined: October 18, 2002 Posts: 8568 Location: All Across The Country
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Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 10:21 am Post subject: Re: Neutral Safety Switch?? - URGENT |
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danfromsyr wrote: |
I'd bypass the neutral safety switch..
IMO starting up an AT in gear is no different than a standard. both have the potential of driving on start..
and yes. FIX your stalling problem. |
Let's not de-content the functionality of our cars until a good college try has been applied to a simple adjustment/check of the switch.
I have seen tragic (tragic I tell ya) "bypasses" of ignition switches that could have been cured in the spot with simply seating the T-8 connector on the steering column support that got jarred loose three months ago when someone was trying to bypass the start wiring! All those dumb toggles and push button switches screwed through the priceless dashboard vinyl . . .
In this case, the fact that the switch WORKS is a mark in its favor to just adjust the thing.
Colin _________________ www.itinerant-air-cooled.com |
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equinox Samba Member
Joined: April 23, 2013 Posts: 183 Location: Detroit, MI
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Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 5:43 pm Post subject: Re: Neutral Safety Switch?? - URGENT |
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Thanks for the feedback, but PLEASE focus on my Subject and question (I'm handling the stalling issues seperately).
Quote: |
There is an adjustable "contact plate" under the shifter housing in the cabin that allows you to start the engine in Park and Neutral. The reverse lights also go through this switch, so you might want to check if the reverse lights come on only in Reverse.
Colin |
This is where I'm confused. The manual as Colin and my mechanic pointed out SHOULD start in BOTH...PARK and NEUTRAL. It does NOT in Nautral and you turn the key and there is NO cranking!!
My questions are thus:
1. Should I be able to start the bus in nautral?? If yes, they need to fix the problem, but if the answer is actually no,
2. I want whatever is preventing it from cranking in nautral bypassed and resolved. Every AUTOMATIC car that I have ever been in allows you to do this and start in park AND neutral. To not be able to do it and a car stalls, for whatever reason, this is HUGE issue and people can be killed from getting slammed into by another vehicle while trying to put it in park to restart it.
These are the questions. Please advise accordingly. |
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borninabus Samba R&D Dept.
Joined: May 18, 2006 Posts: 4536 Location: Arizona Highways
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Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 5:58 pm Post subject: Re: Neutral Safety Switch?? - URGENT |
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as you’ve already been advised, you need to clean and/or adjust the switch.
replace it only if it’s obviously shot.
yes, it should start in N or P.
my auto van (same part) would require a wiggle of the shifter from time to time to get good contact on the saftey switch. _________________ 88 Van WBX, A/T - 13 JSW TDI 6M/T - 2012 Touareg TDI Sport |
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Amskeptic Samba Member
Joined: October 18, 2002 Posts: 8568 Location: All Across The Country
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Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 6:04 pm Post subject: Re: Neutral Safety Switch?? - URGENT |
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equinox wrote: |
Thanks for the feedback, but PLEASE focus on my Subject and question (I'm handling the stalling issues seperately).
Quote: |
There is an adjustable "contact plate" under the shifter housing in the cabin that allows you to start the engine in Park and Neutral. The reverse lights also go through this switch, so you might want to check if the reverse lights come on only in Reverse.
Colin |
This is where I'm confused. The manual as Colin and my mechanic pointed out SHOULD start in BOTH...PARK and NEUTRAL. It does NOT in Nautral and you turn the key and there is NO cranking!!
My questions are thus:
1. Should I be able to start the bus in nautral?? If yes, they need to fix the problem, but if the answer is actually no,
2. I want whatever is preventing it from cranking in nautral bypassed and resolved. Every AUTOMATIC car that I have ever been in allows you to do this and start in park AND neutral. To not be able to do it and a car stalls, for whatever reason, this is HUGE issue and people can be killed from getting slammed into by another vehicle while trying to put it in park to restart it.
These are the questions. Please advise accordingly. |
Geeze.
I think I answered you directly enough. YES, it should be able to start in Park and Neutral.
1) Go adjust the switch. It may be very slightly out of adjustment and killing the neutral position. I did ask you if the reverse lights work in the correct spot, that is a CLUE about which way you may need to adjust the switch, but you didn't answer me, did you? No, you didn't. Too wrapped up in your hideous imaginings, "this is HUGE issue and people can be killed from getting slammed into by another vehicle while trying to put it in park to restart it."
2) Don't drive the car until you have it resolved so you don't have to give us this breathless and pathetic hysteria about stalling in traffic (like who hasn't?). Don't drive the car at all if you can't think on your feet and not be a danger to others.
3) That means, don't drive the car until you have your stalling issue resolved. It is usually an easy thing to fix.
Colin _________________ www.itinerant-air-cooled.com |
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busdaddy Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2004 Posts: 51121 Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 6:23 pm Post subject: Re: Neutral Safety Switch?? - URGENT |
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Seems rather straightforward to me
As already mentioned resolve the dying issue, if that happened more than once to me it would be parked until the issue was located and dealt with, I can't tolerate shit like that from any vehicle.
Take the switch apart and clean it, then adjust as Colin suggests. Or continue driving a hazard, if all of this seems over your head try holding the key in the start position and moving the shifter slowly back and forth (avoid reaching park if rolling), you'll likely find that sweet spot where the starter suddenly jumps to life. _________________ Rust NEVER sleeps and stock never goes out of style.
Please don't PM technical questions, ask your problem in public so everyone can play along. If you think it's too stupid post it here
Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery!
Слава Україні! |
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Sage79 Samba Member
Joined: September 13, 2008 Posts: 433 Location: Holland MI
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Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:45 am Post subject: Re: Neutral Safety Switch?? - URGENT |
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All good info but just to clarify to the OP: The wiper makes contact to start at two locations: P and N. As others have said, maybe just an adjustment is needed to get it to contact at N as well as P, or perhaps it is worn in such a way that it will not contact in N. The wiper does wear out. The part shown in SGKent's post is half of the switch (the half that didn't wear out on mine). The wiper also makes contact at R for the reverse lights, hence the 3 sets of contacts. _________________ Dirk
'79 Westy 2.0FI
'73 Sportsmobile 1.7dual Solex 003Auto - now my daughter's
'77 delux 2.0FI 090Auto - now my son's |
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pittwagen Samba Member
Joined: November 08, 2005 Posts: 765 Location: North of the 49th parallel
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Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:01 am Post subject: Re: Neutral Safety Switch?? - URGENT |
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Sage79 has it right. The spring in the contact bridge or wiper wears out. And the gear shift lever in which it sits gets sloppy over time making the contact even less effective.
You can try to adjust and clean the contacts and it may work for a bit.
Just go an buy a new contact bridge. $12-15. Oh and the part# is for a Rabbit. All early water cooled VW autos used the same switch as did the Vanagon. |
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equinox Samba Member
Joined: April 23, 2013 Posts: 183 Location: Detroit, MI
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Posted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 7:47 pm Post subject: Re: Neutral Safety Switch?? - URGENT |
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Thanks for your support guys. I really appreciate it, but just wanted to keep each issue mutually exclusive.
In in Michigan, so it's cold -20 and snow so the bus is in the garage in storage until Spring and not on the rod.
I just got back in town (travel very often), so I'll have to check the reverse thing. However, I'm thinking now and wondering...if I'm having an issue with the switch not starting at all in neutral...since this switch can prevent starting and ignition...is there any possibility the two issues are in deed connected and once started causing contact issues and stlling??
I just ordered both the black and white contact parts from Bus Depot. They have always been great and in supplying the right parts. Since the bus is like 40YO+, I have no issues in outright replacing parts with brand new ones! |
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telford dorr Samba Member
Joined: March 11, 2009 Posts: 3551 Location: San Diego (Encinitas)
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Posted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 8:40 pm Post subject: Re: Neutral Safety Switch?? - URGENT |
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equinox wrote: |
I'm thinking now and wondering...if I'm having an issue with the switch not starting at all in neutral...since this switch can prevent starting and ignition...is there any possibility the two issues are indeed connected and once started causing contact issues and stalling?? |
No. The switch is an interlock and only prevents the starter from operating. Once started, the switch has no effect on engine operation.
Notes:
- The switch is both starter interlock (50) and reverse light (15) switch. Ignore the reverse light section.
- As the interlock handles full starter relay current, I would suspect that it would suffer the same high current issues that the ignition switch does.
Details:
_________________ '71 panel, now with FI
'Experience' is the ability to recognize a mistake when you're making it again - Franklin P. Jones
In theory, theory works in practice; in practice, it doesn't - William T. Harbaugh
When you're dead, you don't know you're dead. The pain is only felt by others.
Same thing happens when you're stupid. - Philippe Geluck
More VW electrical at http://telforddorr.com/ (available 9am to 9pm PST) |
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equinox Samba Member
Joined: April 23, 2013 Posts: 183 Location: Detroit, MI
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Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 6:27 pm Post subject: Re: Neutral Safety Switch?? - URGENT |
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"No. The switch is an interlock and only prevents the starter from operating. "
well, that sucks! however, it's good to know that you are actually supposed to be able to start the engine in a neutral position also.
I did have someone help me before I went to be last night. First we checked out my 2015 Silverado to see how it worked and the difference when put into the Reverse position. The white lights and reverse lights come on.
On the bus we tried it, and nothing happened! The reverse lights did not come on! |
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telford dorr Samba Member
Joined: March 11, 2009 Posts: 3551 Location: San Diego (Encinitas)
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Posted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:25 am Post subject: Re: Neutral Safety Switch?? - URGENT |
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Actually, it doesn't suck, as now you know what isn't causing the stalling problem, and can now direct your efforts towards the real cause. Also, the reverse light issue virtually guarantees that the interlock switch is defective, as the same contact likely operates both the reverse lights and the starter interlock. Replacing the switch should fix both issues. Can't beat a 2 for 1 repair... _________________ '71 panel, now with FI
'Experience' is the ability to recognize a mistake when you're making it again - Franklin P. Jones
In theory, theory works in practice; in practice, it doesn't - William T. Harbaugh
When you're dead, you don't know you're dead. The pain is only felt by others.
Same thing happens when you're stupid. - Philippe Geluck
More VW electrical at http://telforddorr.com/ (available 9am to 9pm PST) |
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equinox Samba Member
Joined: April 23, 2013 Posts: 183 Location: Detroit, MI
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Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 4:49 pm Post subject: Re: Neutral Safety Switch?? - URGENT |
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Quote: |
Can't beat a 2 for 1 repair |
Nope. Sure can't. I'm looking forward to at least solving this issue soon! Thanks for your help and support! |
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