Don't have height to make oil drain with ALH and Holset turbo

[damac]

im doing a mtdi swap and see lots of info on these boards so decided to try and post.

i got my holset turbo clocked straight down and i don't have the height to deal with fittings to get things to drain right. maybe i could get a custom thing with a bend right away after the turbo but i don't think they want you to do that.

so do i use the block or the pan with maybe a bulkhead fitting and 90 degree fitting to hopefully clear axle and allow the turbo to drain down?

they want the turbo to drain above the oil pan fluid also. not sure if i can try and put a fitting on stock pan or if maybe there is a better option out there?

[Waldi]

The drain tube from turbo has to enter into the oil pan.
Not necessarly over the oil level, as the turbo is higher.

[MarkWard]

My ALH is installed at 50 degrees. I have been running the oil return into the block for 45,000 miles without issue. I use recommended synthetic oil and change frequently. I did this before the internet and did not know this would not work.

My logic was the feed is under pressure. Oil in has to seek its own level out just like a drain trap. When I have to replace the turbo, I will address connecting it to my pan.

Your results may vary.
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[damac]

sorry i should have been more clear this is in a mk2 and my turbo is clocked straight down i guess the angle of the motor is whatever the alh typically sat at.

i don't have much room at all. perhaps if somebody custom welded fittings i could angle over and down with small section of flex hose but off the shelf it isn't cutting it.

i have seen pics of this 1.8t pan and it looks like the turbo drain is so low in the sump, i can't see that being above the oil level like im supposed to install mine?

[AndyBees]

Damac, below is a pic of the Turbo oil drain pipe on the ALH TDI in my Van. It is like Mark described. The engine is laying over on the 50 degree angle.

Contrary to all the hype about this set-up, it has worked just fine for almost 6 years and over 80k miles ...... with at least 25k miles pulling a popup
camper. I do 10k mile oil change intervals as per VW specs using 5w-40 synthetic Shell T6.

The only thing different from that pic is the Exhaust is now all custom SS with no flex pipe..

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'84 Vanagon Tin-top, ALH TDI. 1989 Tin-top
1983 Air-cool, 225k miles, 180k miles mine. Seven trips to Alaska from 1986 thru 2003.

[?Waldo?]

The 'hype' comes straight from Garrett's specs.

https://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/oil_water_lines

[AndyBees]

Waldo, I am well aware where the Hype comes from! ... meanwhile, I don't worry at all about my Turbo and the oil draining back to the block.

Inside the front cover of the ring-binder I prepared for the electrical as-built schematics, I have a photo by Garrett with a big X in the set-up I have.

Obviously, Mark and I have proven that it will perform just fine OE on the 50 degree angle!

Actually, if you look close, the point of spill-over into the block is considerably lower than the center line through the Turbo. Thus, there is more than enough capacity for oil to drain down and push out through the "trap" over into the block.

As I stated, it's been doing just fine for over 80k miles with a total of about 208k miles. Also, it has been handling a Stage 1 Tune for about 70k miles.

EDIT: Damac, based on the Photos you posted in the TDI Club, I believe an OE or aftermarket drain system will work just fine.. Seems someone provided a link to one on eBay. If you had the old one, you could most likely customize it as Jimbote suggested.
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'84 Vanagon Tin-top, ALH TDI. 1989 Tin-top
1983 Air-cool, 225k miles, 180k miles mine. Seven trips to Alaska from 1986 thru 2003.

[damac]

i don't think i have got the correct angles for the photos. the old alh line wouldn't stretch enough and im like 7 inches away from the block so the shape of the new sytle alh hoses would force the block connection part up at an angle instead of down.

aftermarket stuff the typical fittings are way too big. i got a darkside hose and it won't bend enough, the bendy turbo hose won't bend enough either if i had a straight barb on turbo body to meet the block fitting.

plus the axle is under there im not sure if can go much below the line of the guard.

[AndyBees]

I'll see what I have in my stash of parts!
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'84 Vanagon Tin-top, ALH TDI. 1989 Tin-top
1983 Air-cool, 225k miles, 180k miles mine. Seven trips to Alaska from 1986 thru 2003.

[MarkWard]

Did not realize you weren't working with a vanagon. It sounds like you don't have a way to connect the oil return from the turbo to the engine. I get the impression you are looking for a bolt on solution. I am not aware of any. Fabricating an oil return hose should be fairly straightforward. You just need to decide where to return the oil. If you choose the oil pan, you will need to weld a fitting to the pan. TIG weld and it will be a pain on a used pan. Block already has a fitting.

The turbos I am familiar with usually have a threaded return fitting or a bolt plate with a fitting. If it's threaded, you can purchase and adapter to AN hose. Use AN weld bung on the oil pan and then you make up a steel braid hose to
connect the 2 adapters. We use Earls and Aeroquip for fittings, hose, and ends.

If the turbo has a plate with a fitting and it can't be adapted, you can fabricate a new plate with an AN adapter or weld an adapter to the existing plate.

I am aware of Garret's requirement. I was not aware of it at the time I did my conversion. The internet was in its infancy when I did ours. The techs at the dealer told me an ALH in a vanagon would not work. Fortunately I need to
find things out for myself.
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[ZsZ]

[AndyBees]

Mark, Damac's ALH install is in a MK2 Golf.

The seals in the Turbo are metal expansion rings. If anything, excess oil will keep them lubed quite well. In my opinion, seals in the VNT15 never go south due to too much oil. The oil pressure is at or near 60 psi at 70 mph with fully warmed up engine. With the Tune the Turbo will easily do 19 PSI boost and occasionally spike well beyond 20 PSI.

I don't want to sound like a broken record, but pulling a camper on two long road trips (about 11k miles each), it took less than a half quart of oil each time to keep topped off.

Unlike Mark, when I started my project, I ran across a lot of info about the "proper" way to have oil drain from the Turbo. In fact, if I remember correctly, learning of Mark's success, was encouragement for me to not worry and move on to other aspects of the project.

Lastly, I've had the Turbo off several times (dealing motor mount issues) and each time I inspected the drain pipe for obstructions such as sludge... clean as a whistle and the shaft seems to be as good as the one in my 2000 Jetta which is pushing 370k miles.
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'84 Vanagon Tin-top, ALH TDI. 1989 Tin-top
1983 Air-cool, 225k miles, 180k miles mine. Seven trips to Alaska from 1986 thru 2003.

[MarkWard]

[AndyBees]

Mark, on the contrary, even if oil is allowed to drain completely after engine shut-down, there will always be some residual inside the Turbo. However, the recommendation is to allow the Turbo to cool down a bit before turning off the ignition... seems that is in the owner's manual.

I've been inside a lot of VNT15s and yet to find coking, even in those that have been scraping impeller/turbine, with extreme shaft wobble, etc. I have a Turbo from an 09 engine that has a broke shaft. There is no coking inside.

I believe the synthetic oil protects from coking and is the primary reason for the specification in the TDI engine. VW learned a lot from their 1.8T engines back in 2000 and later. Even though those Turbos are water cooled, coking was a huge problem. There was a class action law suit against VW/Audi with options for consumers through 2010. As I recall, mostly too late, VW did change oil spec recommendation for those early engines. (There was discussions about oil capacity being too small due to the compromised size of the oil pan, but in the end full synthetic oil was the best solution.)
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'84 Vanagon Tin-top, ALH TDI. 1989 Tin-top
1983 Air-cool, 225k miles, 180k miles mine. Seven trips to Alaska from 1986 thru 2003.

[damac]

thanks i think i get i need to get something made up because i just don't have the room to clear above the axle cover to use off the shelf fittings, etc.

i will look some more but i think this is something i need to get help with.

do you think a hydrolic tractor hose type place might be able to do this work? im gonna have to take my engine down which is going to be nuts, i will need to take off the tranny. i think i can lift it into passenger side with no seat and pads then take out and put on a dolly for them to roll around.

and my biggest concern is it looks like if i had a plate to attach to turbo and welded shaped pipe right to it i might be able to get a couple inches of straight down but then its going to need to go at 45 degrees to make that block fitting which i think would be doable, then i could avoid the oil pan issue. my problem is the height between bottom of turbo and axle.

[?Waldo?]

The p-trap in the return line and poor orientation of the supply/return will increase the likelihood that you will burn oil, that you will get excessive carbon buildup in the center cartridge, and greatly increase the likelihood of a diesel runaway situation as the engine gets older or if the intake ever suffers restriction (e.g. a plugged air filter). It's truly awesome that you two have not suffered any catastrophic turbo or engine failure from your dramatically out-of-spec oil return lines but I certainly do not consider your professed experiences as 'proof' that such a return line design is a good idea. I also honestly hope no one else does either, for their own sake. I hope that anyone reading will seriously consider the fact that they will be holding the bag if/when there are issues caused by an out-of-spec install and that it only makes sense to strive to reduce/eliminate those potential issues by following the specs of the turbo manufacturer. The specs are not whimsical.

[MarkWard]

?Waldo? Agreed. Wouldn't want someone coming along and reading that a couple of hacks figured out on their own, how to install an ALH into a vanagon, fabricating mounting brackets, custom oil pans, exhaust, sorting the electronics, plumbing etc and combined have over 100,000 trouble free enjoyable miles. Wonder how many vanagon ALH conversions Garret has done? I'll be sure to post back when the engine runs away, but in the mean time, won't be losing sleep over it.

To the original poster. A hydraulic shop can make up a hose for
you, but probably won't be interested in welding a bung to your pan. Pulling the engine seems like overkill.

Not sure where you are, but I would be looking for a local race shop. They
could solve this for you in a couple hours with the car on a hoist. We do stuff like this all the time for people that get themselves into jams. In a car, you should not have any problem using the engine block return. We lay the engine almost on its side, which is why a return to the pan is recommended. I would check the local drag strip or oval track for a race shop.
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[?Waldo?]

You seem to have taken the recommendation to follow the turbo manufacturer's specs as some sort of personal attack rather than an attempt to help. I don't see how you could have possibly come to that conclusion.

[AndyBees]

Mark and I were only sharing our stories and experience.

From the photo I previously posted, it is very clear that the drain point into the block is well below the CHAR of the Turbo. It will not cause pooling of oil inside the CHAR. The drain pipe has an inside diameter very close to a half inch. As oil runs out the bottom of the Turbo it drains on out just as water going through the trap in the lavatory in your bathroom, even without plumber specific venting (to code).

No where did we recommend anyone to do what we have done.

Damac is doing a mTDI engine in an MK2 Golf with a custom Turbo/manifold (based on pics I saw in the TDI Club). So, he obviously needs a custom drain set-up. Our thought was to share what we did (and that it appears be successful), in the event he cannot get a "perfect" drain away from the Turbo and back to the block.

I have no intentions to ever change the oil drain pipe from my Turbo. If anything, the shaft, bushing, and seals receive excellent lubing as is! I have no worries about a run-away. My Intercooler does not accumulate oil as with the OE set-up in the Jetta/Golf/NB (by my design and set-up). I do not believe the sealing rings are suffering from the 50 degree angle.

Below, is the pic of the "does and don'ts" of a drain from the Turbo that I saw early on (2007 or 2008) when I was gleaning the Internet for info to do my conversion project. (I mentioned this pic in one of my previous posts.)

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'84 Vanagon Tin-top, ALH TDI. 1989 Tin-top
1983 Air-cool, 225k miles, 180k miles mine. Seven trips to Alaska from 1986 thru 2003.

[narendra.vw]

My Thread on 'ALH turbo oil drain'.

link,
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=682839&highlight=