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Xevin Samba Member
Joined: January 08, 2014 Posts: 7629
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Posted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 2:05 pm Post subject: Cold Start Valve compatibility question. |
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Can a Type 3 CSV (311 906 171 B ) Be used in a late bay?
Guilty of not searching forum _________________ Keep on Busin'
67rustavenger wrote: |
GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo! |
Clatter wrote: |
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I respect Xevin and he's a turd |
SGKent wrote: |
My God! Xevin and I 100% agree |
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aeromech Samba Member
Joined: January 24, 2006 Posts: 16970 Location: San Diego, California
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Posted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 3:06 pm Post subject: Re: Cold Start Valve compatibility question. |
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I'm guessing it could. Is there a reason why you'd rather use one than the correct part? _________________ Lead Mechanic: San Diego Air and Space Museum
Licensed Airframe and Powerplant Mechanic
Licensed Pilot (Single engine Land)
Boeing 727,737-200-300-400,757,767
Airbus A319,320,321
DC9/MD80
BAe146
Fokker F28/F100
VW type 1 1962,63,65,69,72
VW Type 2 1971 (3 ea.) 1978, 1969
VW Jetta
VW Passat
Capable of leaping tall buildings in a single bound |
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Xevin Samba Member
Joined: January 08, 2014 Posts: 7629
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Posted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 3:16 pm Post subject: Re: Cold Start Valve compatibility question. |
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aeromech wrote: |
I'm guessing it could. Is there a reason why you'd rather use one than the correct part? |
Found a NOS type 3. Just curious if I should grab it for a spare. _________________ Keep on Busin'
67rustavenger wrote: |
GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo! |
Clatter wrote: |
Damn that Xevin... |
skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
I respect Xevin and he's a turd |
SGKent wrote: |
My God! Xevin and I 100% agree |
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aeromech Samba Member
Joined: January 24, 2006 Posts: 16970 Location: San Diego, California
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Posted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 3:21 pm Post subject: Re: Cold Start Valve compatibility question. |
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Xevin wrote: |
aeromech wrote: |
I'm guessing it could. Is there a reason why you'd rather use one than the correct part? |
Found a NOS type 3. Just curious if I should grab it for a spare. |
It looks very similar in the pictures. If the bolt pattern is the same I'd guess it would work. _________________ Lead Mechanic: San Diego Air and Space Museum
Licensed Airframe and Powerplant Mechanic
Licensed Pilot (Single engine Land)
Boeing 727,737-200-300-400,757,767
Airbus A319,320,321
DC9/MD80
BAe146
Fokker F28/F100
VW type 1 1962,63,65,69,72
VW Type 2 1971 (3 ea.) 1978, 1969
VW Jetta
VW Passat
Capable of leaping tall buildings in a single bound |
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airschooled Air-Schooled
Joined: April 04, 2012 Posts: 12722 Location: on a bike ride somewhere
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Posted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 4:22 pm Post subject: Re: Cold Start Valve compatibility question. |
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I have no honest idea, but the fuel pressures of D-Jet and L-Jet are close enough, that the valve would likely work just fine. There is only an inlet though, no outlet, so you would have to add a T to the system near where the stock CSV would act as a coupler.
Note, that “work just fine” and “be technically identical in every way” are different.
Robbie _________________ Learn how your vintage VW works. And why it doesn't!
One-on-one tech help for your Volkswagen:
www.airschooled.com |
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aeromech Samba Member
Joined: January 24, 2006 Posts: 16970 Location: San Diego, California
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Posted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 4:26 pm Post subject: Re: Cold Start Valve compatibility question. |
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Ha, I didn't even notice the T _________________ Lead Mechanic: San Diego Air and Space Museum
Licensed Airframe and Powerplant Mechanic
Licensed Pilot (Single engine Land)
Boeing 727,737-200-300-400,757,767
Airbus A319,320,321
DC9/MD80
BAe146
Fokker F28/F100
VW type 1 1962,63,65,69,72
VW Type 2 1971 (3 ea.) 1978, 1969
VW Jetta
VW Passat
Capable of leaping tall buildings in a single bound |
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airschooled Air-Schooled
Joined: April 04, 2012 Posts: 12722 Location: on a bike ride somewhere
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Posted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 4:28 pm Post subject: Re: Cold Start Valve compatibility question. |
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aeromech wrote: |
Ha, I didn't even notice the T |
Neither did KentPS’ smog tech when we bypassed it completely.....
Robbie _________________ Learn how your vintage VW works. And why it doesn't!
One-on-one tech help for your Volkswagen:
www.airschooled.com |
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furgo Samba Member
Joined: September 06, 2016 Posts: 944 Location: Southern Germany
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Posted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 4:40 pm Post subject: Re: Cold Start Valve compatibility question. |
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asiab3 wrote: |
There is only an inlet though, no outlet, so you would have to add a T to the system near where the stock CSV would act as a coupler. |
Exactly. That and the fact that the connector is a D-Jetronic one and not an L-Jetronic one on the Type 3 CSV, will make it a non-plug-and-play option.
The nozzle is also considerably longer than the CSV on the bus, but I don't think that would make much of a difference once the fuel is sprayed into the plenum.
It would probably work, but before using it you'll have to:
- Couple the single inlet with a T to provide a return for the bus fuel rail
- Either modify the harness or build an adapter to connect from L-Jetronic (harness) to D-Jetronic style (CSV).
Specs
Type 3 CSV:
• Bosch 0 280 170 015 (*)
• Flow rate: N/A
• Spray angle: N/A
Bus CSV:
• Bosch 0 280 170 026
• Flow rate: 85 cm3/min
• Spray angle: 80°
(*) or alternatively:
- Standard Motor Products: CJ8
- Beck Arnley: 158-0086
They are all originally the same Bosch part, just rebranded. _________________ '79 Westy, P22 interior, FI 2.0 l Federal, GE engine (hydraulic lifters)
Decode your M-Plate
Last edited by furgo on Wed Feb 07, 2018 4:26 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Bleyseng Samba Member
Joined: July 03, 2005 Posts: 4752 Location: Seattle
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Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:31 am Post subject: Re: Cold Start Valve compatibility question. |
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Just leave it off and block off the fuel line to it. It really doesn't do that much. _________________ 70 Ghia Black convert-9/69 build date-stock w/133k 1600 SP-barn find now with a rebuilt tranny and engine
77 Westy 2.0L w/Ljet, Camper Special engine-95hp and with LSD!(sold)
76 Porsche 914 2.1L L20c, 120hp Djet (sold)
87 Syncro Westy Titan Red 2.1L 2 knob 100k miles |
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Xevin Samba Member
Joined: January 08, 2014 Posts: 7629
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Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 10:23 am Post subject: Re: Cold Start Valve compatibility question. |
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Thanks for the input guys. Good to know. I do know many guys block it off but just wondering if the type 3 an alternative solution. And now I know _________________ Keep on Busin'
67rustavenger wrote: |
GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo! |
Clatter wrote: |
Damn that Xevin... |
skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
I respect Xevin and he's a turd |
SGKent wrote: |
My God! Xevin and I 100% agree |
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SGKent Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007 Posts: 41031 Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 1:48 pm Post subject: Re: Cold Start Valve compatibility question. |
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there are a lot of similar CSV for sale with one nipple. The length of the injector has to do with the thickness of the manifold. I'd go for one with the shortest injector to reduce shadowing of incoming air, but since the fuel is injected downstream at the ports - even if only 3 cylinders fired on starting the other ones would catch in a second or two. _________________ “Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21519 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 5:46 pm Post subject: Re: Cold Start Valve compatibility question. |
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furgo wrote: |
asiab3 wrote: |
There is only an inlet though, no outlet, so you would have to add a T to the system near where the stock CSV would act as a coupler. |
Exactly. That and the fact that the connector is a D-Jetronic one and not an L-Jetronic one on the Type 3 CSV, will make it a non-plug-and-play option.
The nozzle is also considerably longer than the CSV on the bus, but I don't think that would make much of a difference once the fuel is sprayed into the plenum.
It would probably work, but before using it you'll have to:
- Couple the single inlet with a T to provide a return for the bus fuel rail
- Either modify the harness or build an adapter to connect from L-Jetronic (harness) to D-Jetronic style (CSV).
Specs
Type 3 CSV:
• Bosch 0 280 170 015
• Flow rate: N/A
• Spray angle: N/A
Bus CSV:
• Bosch 0 280 170 026
• Flow rate: 85 cm3/min
• Spray angle: 80° |
Actually an L-jet plug housing can be made to fit the D-jet valve nearly perfectly in about five minutes.
Or...if you want to sample some other D-jet parts...you can use the 022 906 171 A.....if you can find one.
This is identical to the D-jet valve in the picture except that it has an inlet and outlet just like the 022 906 171 B used on L-jet.
That is the difference in the TYPE 4 D-jet cold start valve versus a type 3 model cold start valve.
On all type 4 fuel injected engines whether the were D-jet or L-jet...the cold start valve was a through feed valve that was part of the loop and not a Tee style valve like type 3. Ray |
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popuppopdog Samba Member
Joined: April 19, 2017 Posts: 80 Location: Oakhurst, CA
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Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 8:59 pm Post subject: Re: Cold Start Valve compatibility question. |
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I am not an expert but talked to Ed at Car Craft in Riverside , CA today, holder of the world speed record of VW at Bonneville on vw under 2000cc to date, he basically said the CSV really never worked right and he wouldn't worry about even having one. I have heard this a couple of times from my injector rebuilder and Ed, he said when he worked for VW USA 40 years ago Vw had a flyer to give to folks to help folks start their engines in cold weather cause their system did not work well. A story, I dont know, he also mentioned that at higher RPM engine noise they devised a way for the radio to increase in volume because people complained they could hear their radios at high RPM...love the VW stories |
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KentABQ Samba Member
Joined: September 11, 2016 Posts: 2406 Location: Albuquerque NM
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Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:16 pm Post subject: Re: Cold Start Valve compatibility question. |
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popuppopdog wrote: |
I am not an expert but talked to Ed at Car Craft in Riverside , CA today, holder of the world speed record of VW at Bonneville on vw under 2000cc to date, he basically said the CSV really never worked right and he wouldn't worry about even having one. |
That's good to hear, and I hope it's true. When I refreshed my engine last spring, I installed the CSV, but didn't connect fuel or connector to it. And it starts fine. Although I live in a desert where cold weather is rarely a problem... _________________ -Kent-
1976 Riviera, 1.8l FI chrome yellow VAN - "Chloe"
"I must say, how can you be in a bad mood driving this vehicle full of vibrant color.
Cars of today are so bland in comparison. It's like driving a celebration!" ---WildIdea
Bus ownership via emoticons:
---williamM |
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21519 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:19 pm Post subject: Re: Cold Start Valve compatibility question. |
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The CSV actually does work well.....but only when its really cold.
On a well tuned engine in good shape with good cranking speed.....I hsve never seen a need for it above about 25 F.
Ray |
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SGKent Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007 Posts: 41031 Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 2:43 pm Post subject: Re: Cold Start Valve compatibility question. |
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my CSV works great and I think I have a NOS one around too. $550 buys it if I can find it. Otherwise Google and fleabay "CJ8 - Cold Start" and find either a CJ-8 csv or one like it but make your own tee. Owning a late bus is a challenge. That comes with the turf. _________________ “Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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Gregg in the 603 Samba Member
Joined: April 13, 2013 Posts: 404 Location: New Hampshire, USA
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Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 6:42 pm Post subject: Re: Cold Start Valve compatibility question. |
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Quote: |
$550 buys it if I can find it |
You joking? That's crazy talk!
My CSV kicks ass in the cold. 10 degrees out, it pumps fuel right where I need it and the motor fires up great. _________________ 1979 Mexico Beige Westy auto
Dirty Dover, NH |
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Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50349
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Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 7:05 pm Post subject: Re: Cold Start Valve compatibility question. |
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raygreenwood wrote: |
The CSV actually does work well.....but only when its really cold.
On a well tuned engine in good shape with good cranking speed.....I hsve never seen a need for it above about 25 F.
Ray |
The TTS set point is something like 110°F. I personally think this is too high. I have seen a lot of problems with these engines not being able to start when on the cold side because they are getting too much fuel. At 6000' or above a guy gets to his rig and fires it up, after a minute or so he shuts it off so he can use his key to open the back hatch. He then tries to restart the engine, but it floods and will not restart because no heat has reached the TTS switch yet and the CSV is thus staying open too long pouring in excess fuel. |
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Amskeptic Samba Member
Joined: October 18, 2002 Posts: 8568 Location: All Across The Country
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Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:09 pm Post subject: Re: Cold Start Valve compatibility question. |
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Wildthings wrote: |
raygreenwood wrote: |
The CSV actually does work well.....but only when its really cold.
On a well tuned engine in good shape with good cranking speed.....I hsve never seen a need for it above about 25 F.
Ray |
The TTS set point is something like 110°F. I personally think this is too high. I have seen a lot of problems with these engines not being able to start when on the cold side because they are getting too much fuel. At 6000' or above a guy gets to his rig and fires it up, after a minute or so he shuts it off so he can use his key to open the back hatch. He then tries to restart the engine, but it floods and will not restart because no heat has reached the TTS switch yet and the CSV is thus staying open too long pouring in excess fuel. |
I have had enough issues with cold starting amongst my customers along the northern latitudes to really appreciate the critical assist that the cold start valve provides. If you map the fuel mixture from dead cold to operating temperature, you will find that the L-Jet engines really dump in the fuel for the initial start, allow a stinky rich three-to-five warm up and then lean out for operating temperature.
When I richened the factory L-Jet original engine to survive the desert highway driving, I noticed right away that my cold starts, though the engine would light instantly, would give me a rich lopey idle during the three to five minute warm up. If I set the mixture to factory .7% CO, the cold start and warm up were delightfully lovely, but my head temps would scare me.
The factory specs on the TTS are:
11 seconds grounding at 0* F
1/2 second grounding at 52* (early)
1/2 second grounding at 95* (late)
Remember, cold start valve only operates during starter. If you are experiencing rich running after you have let go of the key, chances are good that you should look elsewhere for causes of rich running.
Colin _________________ www.itinerant-air-cooled.com |
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