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! Help broken down in West texas !
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Wildthings
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 6:02 am    Post subject: Re: ! Help broken down in West texas ! Reply with quote

Abscate wrote:
Op..you have to proceed slowly since you are on a steep learning curve

There is a lot of energy stored in your battery and the cables to the starter are one of the few cables that are not fused for safety. You can hurt yourself and also burn your Bus up if you make mistakes here.

Until you learn a bit more, the first rule when working on electrical systems is disconnecting the negative terminal on the battery..identify it, loosen clamp, remove terminal, then set it away from battery.

That makes it safe .

When you go to replace your starter this. Is really important as. You will have loose live 12V cables lying around, otherwise. If they touch metal with the battery fully connected, they will do major damage to the cables if not burn your Bus up,


One can quite literally end up with a white hot wrench in their hands, harming the cables is a minor issue in comparison. The wrench could also contact the fuel line which could well be ones last act in life.
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TomWesty
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 6:30 am    Post subject: Re: ! Help broken down in West texas ! Reply with quote

Where are you in west Texas? Maybe there is a Samba member near you that can help.
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THE LORAX
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 6:54 am    Post subject: Re: ! Help broken down in West texas ! Reply with quote

Thank you all for your advice. Will definitely be removing the negative cable and was aware of that but thank you for the reminder. Looks like a lot of directions to try and should be fun this morning at 7:30 a.m. in the parking lot but better than in the desert sand of Big Bend National Park.

Right now I am in Alpine Texas and I'm not sure where to look for some by members in the area. Heading out to dry and jump the starter with fingers crossed. Thank you again for all your advice I've been on this for him reading for 2 years and learning and rebuilding the bus the engine and battery terminals to me are super clean compared to other engines over seen seen out there and have a super competent mechanic at home guiding and teaching me. I'm feeling like this is a starter and going or gone bad issue but time will tell.

Really your time and help on this is truly amazing and has kept my spirits from hitting rock bottom.... - Samm & Nora
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THE LORAX
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 7:26 am    Post subject: Re: ! Help broken down in West texas ! Reply with quote

So jumped the starter and it turns over to try and stay the bus. Almost started but it's cold and a tight spot to keep it cross connected. Tried to start with key no go.... suggestions? Can I rule out the starter? Remote wire to engine compartment for direct battery start? Ignition switch done for possibly? Feeling like I need to reach out to some mechanics maybe... Thanks again!
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Q-Dog
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 7:42 am    Post subject: Re: ! Help broken down in West texas ! Reply with quote

Yes, it could be a bad ignition switch. Do you have a meter to test it? Any local mechanic shop should be able to troubleshoot this.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 7:47 am    Post subject: Re: ! Help broken down in West texas ! Reply with quote

You can run a fused wire from the battery positive to the positive terminal 15 on the coil - 10 Amp fuse will be good to bypass the ignition switch. Remove after stopping car, to stop the engine.

If you do that, then jump the starter to get cranking, and it doesn't start, you have more trouble and need pro help. Your car, not you.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:00 am    Post subject: Re: ! Help broken down in West texas ! Reply with quote

THE LORAX wrote:

Right now I am in Alpine Texas and I'm not sure where to look for some by members in the area.


Download the VanAlert app and there is a section on shops that also lists members in the area willing to help. It is in my sig line.

Good luck. You'll get this figured out.
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THE LORAX
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:03 am    Post subject: Re: ! Help broken down in West texas ! Reply with quote

Argh did not bring the meter... if starter turns over is it and solenoid good to go and I can rule that issue out of this equation?
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:03 am    Post subject: Re: ! Help broken down in West texas ! Reply with quote

I would rule out the ignition switch.seeing as you bypassed the switch when jumping the starter,to be sure you can run a wire from the battery Pos to the coil and jump the starter again,that will completely bypass the ignition.
Last starter that failed on me would sometimes crank find,other times it would crank very slow or not at all.
Check the ground strap at the front of the transmission,also if/when you remove the starter check the bushing in the bell housing.
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Bulli Klinik
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:30 am    Post subject: Re: ! Help broken down in West texas ! Reply with quote

Pick up one of these while you're at it. I don't leave home without it.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I'm also wondering what starter is being used with that wacky engine/trans set-up. Maybe it led to a the starter going bad?
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THE LORAX
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:34 am    Post subject: Re: ! Help broken down in West texas ! Reply with quote

Bulk Klink - what is that? A push button starter switch? And how does it connect?
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:48 am    Post subject: Re: ! Help broken down in West texas ! Reply with quote

You started out with not cranking after fueling up,now you're into cranking but not starting,go back and check every wire and connection that you have even looked at,you may have inadvertently loosened a connection.
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THE LORAX
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:07 am    Post subject: Re: ! Help broken down in West texas ! Reply with quote

No cranking with key. Turns over when jumping the starter solenoid but wouldn't start as I couldn't work the throttle I think (is kind of cold down here) . Heading down to check that Battery is good for sure, it's new but better double check.

All the shops in town are telling me they are booked up and can't help even with my 911 sob story Crying or Very sad

Sighing pretty heavy now because my little girl needs attention and I can't give this ful focus. the lack of internet makes this troubling problem even harder... sighing oretty heavy now. All those sprinter vans i smirked at these last 2 years are now getting their revenge I guess Rolling Eyes
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Randy in Maine
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:37 am    Post subject: Re: ! Help broken down in West texas ! Reply with quote

Owning a remote starter switch is cheap money well spent. Even a NAPA will have one.


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furgo
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:51 am    Post subject: Re: ! Help broken down in West texas ! Reply with quote

Randy in Maine wrote:
Owning a remote starter switch is cheap money well spent. Even a NAPA will have one.


+1, or build yourself one (as soon as you're back home safely):

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Unless you've got no other option available, I wouldn't recommend the screwdriver shortcircuit trick. While it works, you can easily do more damage than good.
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Wildthings
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:28 am    Post subject: Re: ! Help broken down in West texas ! Reply with quote

A remote starter switch set up with an alligator clip on one lead for connecting to the big lug on the starter and an insulated female spade on the other lead is fairly safe to use and leave connected while driving. You can work the throttle from the engine compartment while pushing the button.
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Danwvw
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 12:16 pm    Post subject: Re: ! Help broken down in West texas ! Reply with quote

Somethings on this thread just don't add up First of all this is a Type 1 VW engine a Dual Port not Single Port like the photo description says. And the 1974 Bus used a type 4 engine. Way different. I suppose this 1974 Bus starter is the same as my 1971 is? SR-15 or SR-17 should work.

Mine used to not start after being parked overnights or after being left to cool down good when on trips. One time it left us stranded at our campground in the morning. Every attempt failed to start it. We had guys bring over those jump start batteries and they only made it click or something. We pushed it finally to start it. I had the starter rebuilt but it still would do this. However less frequently. I installed the remote relay. That seemed to help at first but then the problem came back. Anyhow the problem went on for years but not very often. I think my generator was only charging it to about 13.5 volts which did not help. Generator yours is an Alternator (if the photo is the actual engine?) Anyhow the Generator or the Alternator can be the problem too. Should start though if you are getting at least 10 volts during cranking at the starter.

1. If you have at least 10 volts at the starter trying to crank and it doesn't start then the problem is in the starter.
2. If you have less than 10 volts it may be the battery or the cables or the charging system.
3. Battery check Voltage: should be 12.6 volts rest. At least 10 cranking.
4. Alternator check voltage: to the battery should be 14 volts charging.
5. Key switch check voltage: to the solenoid at the starter when cranked should be at least 10 volts. (Really good to base it on the difference though. You know what you have at the battery vs what you have at the little wire to the starter. Should not be more than 2 volts lost in the bus through the wiring and ignition switch on the column).
6. Sometimes car batteries just boil the water out during trips and need attention.
7. Have someone help and push for now. Good luck.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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THE LORAX
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 12:58 pm    Post subject: Re: ! Help broken down in West texas ! Reply with quote

Hi Dan yes this is my engine in a 74 westy. I bought it this way. The original engine I've been completely removed as well as all fuel injection equipment. You are correct I misspoke it is a dual port 1641 engine mounted to I believe the original transmission which is getting a little growly and will need replacement soon to something better mated to this engine.

I have run a 14 gauge lead from the positive Spade on the starter into the engine compartment so I can tap on the positive battery terminal which has allowed me to start from the engine compartment for now. Seems to be running as smooth and slow as before headed directly into some West Texas wind...

Will be getting deep into it upon return to Colorado in 6 days. Thanks all!
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Chochobeef
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:26 pm    Post subject: Re: ! Help broken down in West texas ! Reply with quote

Sorry you weren't closer to Fort Worth. I'm always happy to offer my assistance to VW'ers who need it. Glad you found a temporary solution as it sounds like you might want to look into installing a "Hard Start Relay". Really, its just placing a source of power for the starter solenoid closer and not trying to run amperage from the battery to the front through the ignition switch, and then all the way back to the starter. Very inefficient and when these were new, nobody cared.

Good luck with your travels.
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Wildthings
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:51 pm    Post subject: Re: ! Help broken down in West texas ! Reply with quote

Danwvw wrote:
Somethings on this thread just don't add up First of all this is a Type 1 VW engine a Dual Port not Single Port like the photo description says. And the 1974 Bus used a type 4 engine. Way different. I suppose this 1974 Bus starter is the same as my 1971 is? SR-15 or SR-17 should work.

Mine used to not start after being parked overnights or after being left to cool down good when on trips. One time it left us stranded at our campground in the morning. Every attempt failed to start it. We had guys bring over those jump start batteries and they only made it click or something. We pushed it finally to start it. I had the starter rebuilt but it still would do this. However less frequently. I installed the remote relay. That seemed to help at first but then the problem came back. Anyhow the problem went on for years but not very often. I think my generator was only charging it to about 13.5 volts which did not help. Generator yours is an Alternator (if the photo is the actual engine?) Anyhow the Generator or the Alternator can be the problem too. Should start though if you are getting at least 10 volts during cranking at the starter.

1. If you have at least 10 volts at the starter trying to crank and it doesn't start then the problem is in the starter.
2. If you have less than 10 volts it may be the battery or the cables or the charging system.
3. Battery check Voltage: should be 12.6 volts rest. At least 10 cranking.
4. Alternator check voltage: to the battery should be 14 volts charging.
5. Key switch check voltage: to the solenoid at the starter when cranked should be at least 10 volts. (Really good to base it on the difference though. You know what you have at the battery vs what you have at the little wire to the starter. Should not be more than 2 volts lost in the bus through the wiring and ignition switch on the column).
6. Sometimes car batteries just boil the water out during trips and need attention.
7. Have someone help and push for now. Good luck.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Going to a larger battery cable can get you more volts at the starter. I suspect that is one of the reasons I have been free of starter problems for several decades at this point in time, !!!Knock on wood!!!

If you are only getting 10volts at the starter during cranking, you will get even less at the ignition switch and then less still at either the pull in spade on the solenoid and at the coil. Also note that the slower the starter turns the more amps it draws, so having small wires in the starter circuit and bad connections amplifies the voltage drop. An increase in wire size combined with nice clean connections can net you maybe a volt and a half at the starter.
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