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Porsha guy newb to VWs needs advice
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rodeking
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 9:42 am    Post subject: Re: Porsha guy newb to VWs needs advice Reply with quote

Thank you for the comments and welcomes, there is an incredible amount of knowledge here. Yes, I purposely spelled it with the SHA to see the comments. When I pronounce it like that around here at cruise nights I get a lot of weird looks. They are great cars but frankly I'm a little tired of the Porsche tax you pay for GOOD parts, machining, etc. This is the first mag case I've worked on, I refuse to own a mag case Porsche, you can spend 3500 on machining to get one of those cases right. Oversize mains are all but non-existent, consequently the mating surface has to be cut and then they do an align bore back to STD, etc,etc etc. There are two shops in the states that I would trust with those cases, one in AZ and one in CA (of course).

Re. the doka, this is 90% original. It's on the second respray. You can see the replacement rockers someone did, they are pop riveted on and then he covered the seam with that trim strip. There are a few other patches in the floor, battery tray,etc done the same way. For riveted patches it's a good job, the seams are all sealed with seam sealer. My guess is he did not want to weld the rockers on and disturb the patina and have to repaint the whole thing. There is one somewhat major problem (from an "original") standpoint, he cut the bulkhead out behind the front seats. Also instead of replacing the bed with the proper sheet metal, he riveted in a piece of 1/8 steel diamond plate right over the original bed and coated it with bedliner. That can be taken care of with a little work.I'll start a thread in the proper section so not to clutter this one up but I guess I already did.

On the lifters, I thought I read the Brazilians were the best but I will use the CB lifters with the CB cam.

case savers - yes, to do the job right I should do these. I had a 30 year aircooled mechanic look at the case and his comments were that the saddles were in such nice shape so the studs should be fine and weren't subjected to a lot of hammering he sees on hammered out cases. But I'm going to get them done, I know if I was buying anything with a mag case and the owner told me he rebuilt the engine and didn't install case savers I'd probably keep walking. I have an old Excello 9x42 mill but it is not operational so I'll leave it to a pro.

cooling - it has the doghouse shroud and all the factory tin so I should be good. However, one of the outside plates on the cooler is pushed in and crushing the fins so maybe a new cooler is in order. I will have to check out the venturi ring mod. and will get a new body seal.

dual carbs - I know they wake these engines up but I want to stay single because of the og look. Now that I think about it that is kind of ridiculous thinking on my part because I modded the engine in my otherwise all stock, factory paint '79 930, although it's nothing that I can't return to stock if I ever want to and will keep all the factory parts. I know if I go duals then the simple rebuild plan goes out the window for a big bore stroker. I will do some more thinking..

modok, you say the #1 housing is 1.5 over? My Wilson book shows main bearing bore range of 2.5590 - 2.5598 and I'm at 2.5590 in the Y axis and 2.5596 in X (just off the seam). So it has 6 tenths oval. #2 is 2.562 in the Y and 2.5605 in the X. So it is over spec in both. Should I get it bored? From a get it perfect standpoint the answer is yes. From a "will be ok for tens of thousands of miles" that it will probably never see standpoint it is ok. But if I end up sending it out for case savers then I'd be crazy not to get it bored and the deck cleaned up.

heads - yes, two diff. heads, a type 3 and the type 1 with the step cut. I am going to cc and disassemble and see what the guides, seats are like before I decide what to do. I may end up just buying new heads.

CR - yes, 8.3 - 8.5 would be better performance-wise. Will 8.0 run on 87? I assume 8.3 - 8.5 requires 91, we have good 93 here also. It's not a fuel cost thing to me, that is immaterial, I'm thinking from a resale (years away). If it requires 91 does that affect it vs. 87?? With the P-cars (how's that?) it's all 91 or 93. I run nothing but good 93 in the turbo.

oprn - do you ever say "eh" in the states? Very Happy My GF is Canadian and I'm in Canada now..

good advice on the cam thrust surfaces, will do. will also use double thrust bearings.
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Brian_e
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 10:22 am    Post subject: Re: Porsha guy newb to VWs needs advice Reply with quote

I never like to build engines with stock cylinder registers anymore. You will have it all apart, and it will be at the machine shop, might as well have them bore the case for 90.5-92 bases. If the shop is good, they can correct the deck heights according to the crank, reduce the deck height and make a nice wide flat sealing surface all in one setup.

A 92 thickwall P&C set will cost the same as thick wall 88's, and the 150cc increase is well worth the machine work cost.

For a simple bus engine I like this;
New stock valve AA 500 series heads. Blended bowls and a good 3 angle valve job.
Stock crank and rods
AA thick wall 92 A's
CB2280 cheater cam, orange box CB lifters
Stock 34pict carb on the newer CB intake
Stock push rods trimmed to length
Stock rockers on solid shafts
8.5cr, .040" deck height
1 3/8" header
All original tin
Stock Sachs clutch.

If you want to fiddle with it and tinker tuning it, bore the vent in the carb to 27-28mm.

Brian
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 10:39 am    Post subject: Re: Porsha guy newb to VWs needs advice Reply with quote

rodeking wrote:
dual carbs - I know they wake these engines up but I want to stay single because of the og look. Now that I think about it that is kind of ridiculous thinking on my part because I modded the engine in my otherwise all stock, factory paint '79 930, although it's nothing that I can't return to stock if I ever want to and will keep all the factory parts. I know if I go duals then the simple rebuild plan goes out the window for a big bore stroker. I will do some more thinking...


This is one of my favorites quotes -- I find it hard to disagree. :

mark tucker wrote:
and remember it's your foot that unleashes the power...unless you choose too small and it isant there to unleash.


In context
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rodeking
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 10:59 am    Post subject: Re: Porsha guy newb to VWs needs advice Reply with quote

OK, now I'm thinking more, that is usually bad..

I'm going to pull the studs and box the case up to probably send out for 20 over align bore, case savers, open up jug bores to ?? and deck it, but by how much??

I am going to stay with the single 34 PICT, I thought going over like 1671 is a waste because of the single, but now I'm hearing the single PICT will support a 90.5 or 92 bore??

any disadvantage to going to 92 vs 90.5? Maybe 92 is pushing the PICT too much?

What kind of deck height can I expect with the AA 90.5 or 92 with the stock deck surface, I can always add shims to raise it but lowering is more difficult.
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Paul.H
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 11:46 am    Post subject: Re: Porsha guy newb to VWs needs advice Reply with quote

rodeking wrote:
Hello,
I've been lurking here for a few months, just getting around to a 1st post. I've been doing this stuff as a hobby for 40+ years but new to these neat little engines, always had a soft spot for them. Anyway I picked up a double cab a couple years ago from a guy a couple miles from me. It has an AE stamped AS41 1600DP. Compression was 95 on 1-3, 70 on #4 (ex was at .001 and it has a leak at cyl/head.) Crank end float was .013. It is a really nice std case and I intend on using it as is, no line bore, #2 saddle is 2.5605 max, 1-3 all 2.559. Thrust saddle is .875. Crank is also really nice std/std, will also use as is with a polish. All journals are a few tenths over low std. TIR on #2 is .0003. Oil press. was 35 idle, 50 max.

It had a flat cam stamped C20, all the lifters are dished.

Oil pump was a 19mm, isn't 21 mm correct?

Heads are a 113 101 375A with the step cut and a 311 101 375. I haven't cc'd them or disassembled but I can't find any cracks.

Carb is stock 34 PICT3, I couldn't get the thing to idle w/o backing the fixed idle jet out 1/4.

DVDA with retard disconnected and set at 7.5 static.

I should probably just rebuild as stock but since I can't leave anything alone here is my plan:

1671
thick wall 88 slip-ins
CB 2280 cheater
Brazilian stock lifters, stock rockers
Schadek 26 mm or 21mm?
rebuilt stock heads
shoot for 8:1 CR with .050 deck
rebuild 34 PICT, don't want doubles.
rebuild DVDA
street header with quiet pack single

How's that look? This will get 1000 mi a year or so, just a novelty to drive to to a few cruise nights and sunny day drives. It's nice to be able to get a set of bearings for under 100 compared to 1000+ for OEM mains and clevite rods on the last build, a modded 930.

Thanks.



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Don't use that cam as you'll never get a nice idle with stock carb. Use a CB cam from the Group 1 - Fuel Efficient Series
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Dan Ruddock
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 11:51 am    Post subject: Re: Porsha guy newb to VWs needs advice Reply with quote

I would defiantly do case savers. Get the 12mm OD saver for 8mm head studs and have the top #3 saver deep sunk, all this greatly reduces the chance of a crack behind #3. I have a set of these savers that I probably should move.
Dan
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FreeBug
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 11:56 am    Post subject: Re: Porsha guy newb to VWs needs advice Reply with quote

Paul.H wrote:
rodeking wrote:
Hello,
I've been lurking here for a few months, just getting around to a 1st post. I've been doing this stuff as a hobby for 40+ years but new to these neat little engines, always had a soft spot for them. Anyway I picked up a double cab a couple years ago from a guy a couple miles from me. It has an AE stamped AS41 1600DP. Compression was 95 on 1-3, 70 on #4 (ex was at .001 and it has a leak at cyl/head.) Crank end float was .013. It is a really nice std case and I intend on using it as is, no line bore, #2 saddle is 2.5605 max, 1-3 all 2.559. Thrust saddle is .875. Crank is also really nice std/std, will also use as is with a polish. All journals are a few tenths over low std. TIR on #2 is .0003. Oil press. was 35 idle, 50 max.

It had a flat cam stamped C20, all the lifters are dished.

Oil pump was a 19mm, isn't 21 mm correct?

Heads are a 113 101 375A with the step cut and a 311 101 375. I haven't cc'd them or disassembled but I can't find any cracks.

Carb is stock 34 PICT3, I couldn't get the thing to idle w/o backing the fixed idle jet out 1/4.

DVDA with retard disconnected and set at 7.5 static.

I should probably just rebuild as stock but since I can't leave anything alone here is my plan:

1671
thick wall 88 slip-ins
CB 2280 cheater
Brazilian stock lifters, stock rockers
Schadek 26 mm or 21mm?
rebuilt stock heads
shoot for 8:1 CR with .050 deck
rebuild 34 PICT, don't want doubles.
rebuild DVDA
street header with quiet pack single

How's that look? This will get 1000 mi a year or so, just a novelty to drive to to a few cruise nights and sunny day drives. It's nice to be able to get a set of bearings for under 100 compared to 1000+ for OEM mains and clevite rods on the last build, a modded 930.

Thanks.



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Don't use that cam as you'll never get a nice idle with stock carb. Use a CB cam from the Group 1 - Fuel Efficient Series


Which cam are you talking about? The 2280 idles fine...
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Paul.H
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 12:32 pm    Post subject: Re: Porsha guy newb to VWs needs advice Reply with quote

It was the C20 in the original post. I missed the 2280 reference which is probably OK too but I never tried that one myself
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rodeking
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 12:35 pm    Post subject: Re: Porsha guy newb to VWs needs advice Reply with quote

That is what I was wondering too, my research says the 2280 is fine. So maybe I couldn't get it to a idle w/o backing out the fixed idle jet because of the C20 cam? I took the 34 PICT apart to have a look see, was fairly clean but it does have a somewhat worn throttle shaft bore, I packed it full of grease around the shaft to see if it made a diff, it didn't. I'm going to go through it and make a new shaft bushing from a bronze valve guide. It's just the side with the throttle arm, the other side appears ok.
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Danwvw
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 1:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Porsha guy newb to VWs needs advice Reply with quote

I just went through the process of working on the PICT 34 carb throttle bushing to try to get mine to idle right with a W-100 cam. That did help but went to dual carbs, much better. If running the stock carb I think I would use the CB-2280 cam.
And I had been driving my "Porsch" for years before I heard it pronounced otherwise. Just depends on who you hang out with. I guess?

Oh, and Isn't the 69mm stroke/88mm bore a 1679cc?

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rodeking
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 1:30 pm    Post subject: Re: Porsha guy newb to VWs needs advice Reply with quote

You are correct, 1679, not 1671, duh on my part. Yes, I am planning on the 2280 cam, just have to decide on what bore. All I want this doka to do is go down the road at 60 w/o blowing up or overheating but I want a little more than stock.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 1:38 pm    Post subject: Re: Porsha guy newb to VWs needs advice Reply with quote

I can only comment on my experience of building 1600 engines with stock carbs and the only cams that gave a normal idle were the CB Group1.Other bigger cams like E110 and E100 were tried but were not suitable for engines built for customers-too many complaints
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 1:46 pm    Post subject: Re: Porsha guy newb to VWs needs advice Reply with quote

Paul.H wrote:
I can only comment on my experience of building 1600 engines with stock carbs and the only cams that gave a normal idle were the CB Group1.Other bigger cams like E110 and E100 were tried but were not suitable for engines built for customers-too many complaints


Try the 2280, it sounds like it's right up your alley...good all-around power to 4800, and passes idle emissions.
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rodeking
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 1:48 pm    Post subject: Re: Porsha guy newb to VWs needs advice Reply with quote

I am now looking at dual carb setups, this s%&@ always happens with everything I work on, just cannot leave it alone. I am not doing Webers or Dells, I'm looking at the CB dual Solex setup, are those the carbs called Kadron's? Are they any good?
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 1:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Porsha guy newb to VWs needs advice Reply with quote

No.
Probably the 88's thick then thin at the bottom Type 1, VW8800T1K type would be good and the least expensive. I used those same 113 101 375A heads on my bus. Had them worked, opened, Single HD valves springs, New exhaust valves, 3 angled and mild porting plus port matching and they are great on my bus. The only problem I had with them is one of the spark plug holes. So if your spark plug holes aren't excellent I would opt for new heads you might even save some money as mine cost about $475 for the pair in just machine work which included port matching dual DRLA manifolds. I would only open the case if going to 92mm bore and Dual carbs.
Actually, I would given what you want out of it go with a Single Port engine that looks original.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 1:59 pm    Post subject: Re: Porsha guy newb to VWs needs advice Reply with quote

FreeBug wrote:
Paul.H wrote:
I can only comment on my experience of building 1600 engines with stock carbs and the only cams that gave a normal idle were the CB Group1.Other bigger cams like E110 and E100 were tried but were not suitable for engines built for customers-too many complaints


Try the 2280, it sounds like it's right up your alley...good all-around power to 4800, and passes idle emissions.


I don't do that kind of work anymore but the 2280 cam looks close to the E100 duration which i wouldn't chance on a customer but maybe for owner/user/builder who doesn't mind fiddling. The C20 was a NO NO and it's only 277 deg duration
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 2:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Porsha guy newb to VWs needs advice Reply with quote

The farther away you deviate from a 1600, the more challenging it will be, and the more modifications you will need to do to a stock carb. The carb/end castings are the limitations. Whether you are using a 34 pict 3 on a 1600, or a 1915, you aren't going to create a huge difference in hp.

If you're now thinking dual carbs, the what ifs are going to snowball till you get to a 2332. I'd stick with the original plan of the 1679/stock carb.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 3:01 pm    Post subject: Re: Porsha guy newb to VWs needs advice Reply with quote

Well, there are 4 or 5 good reasons to go to Dual carbs. The only good reason I can think of to do a stock Solex single carb is it looks original! The biggest drawback with any single carb is the need for preheating and warm air to feed it so it won't get poor MPG's and bog down on take-off when cold. Your Double Cab would look great with the original motor and oil bath air cleaner installed. Or even any 1585cc, 1679cc, 1800cc, 1835cc, 1968cc build with single port heads and stock oil bath the original carburetor? etc.. to look original.

What year is it?
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Last edited by Danwvw on Sat Jan 13, 2018 3:29 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 3:15 pm    Post subject: Re: Porsha guy newb to VWs needs advice Reply with quote

Where did Wilson get the spec?
Are all bearings the same OD? no, they are not
The important thing is the bearing fits the hole. That's all that matters.

The HIGHWAY capabilities of a stock carb VS the small single barrel dual carbs is about the same. Either way is OK choice as long as you stay with the very mild cam.

I don't know why porsche machine work and parts are so high. Probably self inflicted. I can line bore any engine but I have only done one porsche, because in 20 years that's how many porsche customers there were. Rolling Eyes
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 3:34 pm    Post subject: Re: Porsha guy newb to VWs needs advice Reply with quote

Danwvw wrote:
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Bore x Bore x Stroke x Pi (3.14159...)
This is the one chart you posted that uses the accepted rounding "down" to distinguish a 76mm 2110 from an 82mm 2110 (i.e. a 76x94 engine would typically be referred to as a 2109). The second chart calls it a 2110, and the last chart doesn't list the uncommon 76mm crank. Wink
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