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Goach2
Samba Member
Joined: November 20, 2017
Posts: 521
Location: Niagara Region, Ontario
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BayCreamPuff
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Joined: August 10, 2015
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Location: Oakland, CA
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SGKent 
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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 Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:19 am Post subject: Re: Late Bay Fuel sender |
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VDO is referred.. They are still out there but you have to dig and spend more $$. Also check the gauge and voltage regulator.
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Goach2
Samba Member
Joined: November 20, 2017
Posts: 521
Location: Niagara Region, Ontario
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| Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 2:29 pm Post subject: Re: Late Bay Fuel sender |
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German Supply is VDO, so that sounds like the preferred way to go. I was able to ground the sender wire to see the fuel gauge go to 'full'. Is this enough to call it operational? Or should I perform other tests on it? When I grounded it from the tank, it rose pretty steady. When I grounded from the back of the gauge, it bumped it's way along to the top.
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1977 FI Westfalia |
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Hoody
Samba Member
Joined: November 28, 2007
Posts: 1948
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| Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 3:40 pm Post subject: Re: Late Bay Fuel sender |
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| German supply does not have the VDO senders according to their site. I guessed you missed the Out of Stock in big red letters. There is a good video on YouTube about repairing the originals. But it addresses one way it can fail. If you can find a VDO sender be prepared to pay over 100 for them. |
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50336
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| Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 5:02 pm Post subject: Re: Late Bay Fuel sender |
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| If you have a sender where the only think wrong is the wire is bad, then consider rewinding it. Bending the arm and the stops helps, but doing so cannot make the sender accurate over the entire range of motion. |
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Goach2
Samba Member
Joined: November 20, 2017
Posts: 521
Location: Niagara Region, Ontario
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| Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:07 pm Post subject: Re: Late Bay Fuel sender |
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I'm already talking with Scott at GS, not everything marked Out of Stock actually is. I've seen the rebuild threads for these. I have so much to do, I may rebuild the original as a spare.
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1977 FI Westfalia |
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Goach2
Samba Member
Joined: November 20, 2017
Posts: 521
Location: Niagara Region, Ontario
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| Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 3:07 pm Post subject: Re: Late Bay Fuel sender |
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New fuel sender is here! About 10/11 - 75/77 ohms in it's full arc. Sound about right?
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1977 FI Westfalia |
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furgo
Samba Member
Joined: September 06, 2016
Posts: 944
Location: Southern Germany
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| Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 3:51 pm Post subject: Re: Late Bay Fuel sender |
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| Goach2 wrote: |
| New fuel sender is here! About 10/11 - 75/77 ohms in it's full arc. Sound about right? |
It was ca. 10 Ω with full tank and 76 Ω with empty tank for me on this thread with the original VDO sender, so the resistance values sound about right. They might be slightly different for you depending on how well the voltage regulator holds a steady voltage across the resistance range. You can bend the stopper tabs on your sender to calibrate ther reading with your gauge/regulator combo.
You'll have to mechanically adjust the float's arm so that the float does not hit the tank top and allows the max reading to be more than 3/4 of a full tank. I've not done that part myself yet, but I'm sure others can help you there.
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'79 Westy, P22 interior, FI 2.0 l Federal, GE engine (hydraulic lifters)
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Goach2
Samba Member
Joined: November 20, 2017
Posts: 521
Location: Niagara Region, Ontario
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| Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 4:25 pm Post subject: Re: Late Bay Fuel sender |
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So with wires connected, I get a full signal just shy of the height of the original sender. On the other end, it is just above the last line for empty, which lines up pretty good with the original. Only the half-way point seems to show less than half on the gauge, but perhaps that's normal?
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SGKent
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 4:29 pm Post subject: Re: Late Bay Fuel sender |
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Scott's website shows he has the late VDO. He's had some shipping issues so check out feed back. Also West Coast Metric indicates they have the German VDO ones too. http://www.westcoastmetric.com/search.html?q=211+919+051A+&go=Search
I'd call first to be sure the ad is correct. You will need to bend the arm a little so it reads more than 3/4 full. The original swing arm floats had a flat top and came up further.
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furgo
Samba Member
Joined: September 06, 2016
Posts: 944
Location: Southern Germany
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| Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 5:03 pm Post subject: Re: Late Bay Fuel sender |
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| Goach2 wrote: |
| So with wires connected, I get a full signal just shy of the height of the original sender. On the other end, it is just above the last line for empty, which lines up pretty good with the original. Only the half-way point seems to show less than half on the gauge, but perhaps that's normal? |
I'm not sure if the gauge's output is linear in relation to the sender. The resistance change in the sender itself might not be linear across the range either, depending on how the winding has been layed out. I can't recall the way resistance changed when I tested it a few months ago, but I can double-check on my spare sender tomorrow. I think you're fine, though.
Ratwell's image would also seem to indicate that the half tank point does not correspond to the halfway mark in the arm's travel:
| ratwell wrote: |
| First 3 positions are for full, half and empty |
On a side note, I've never quite understood that picture. The resistance values for instance don't seem to match the 10 Ω (full) .. 70 Ω (empty) range most folks have measured. Also, if the third position means "empty", what does the fourth position indicate?
All that to say that the best way to test this is with the sender in the tank and a measured increase/decrease of fuel while monitoring the gauge. Easier said than done, I know.
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SGKent
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 10:42 pm Post subject: Re: Late Bay Fuel sender |
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| furgo wrote: |
| Goach2 wrote: |
| So with wires connected, I get a full signal just shy of the height of the original sender. On the other end, it is just above the last line for empty, which lines up pretty good with the original. Only the half-way point seems to show less than half on the gauge, but perhaps that's normal? |
I'm not sure if the gauge's output is linear in relation to the sender. The resistance change in the sender itself might not be linear across the range either, depending on how the winding has been layed out. I can't recall the way resistance changed when I tested it a few months ago, but I can double-check on my spare sender tomorrow. I think you're fine, though.
Ratwell's image would also seem to indicate that the half tank point does not correspond to the halfway mark in the arm's travel:
| ratwell wrote: |
| First 3 positions are for full, half and empty |
On a side note, I've never quite understood that picture. The resistance values for instance don't seem to match the 10 Ω (full) .. 70 Ω (empty) range most folks have measured. Also, if the third position means "empty", what does the fourth position indicate?
All that to say that the best way to test this is with the sender in the tank and a measured increase/decrease of fuel while monitoring the gauge. Easier said than done, I know. |
Trust me Furgo. The new VDO senders work fine. They just hit the top of the tank. Bend the arm to compensate for full tank and they will work fine. I say that from experience. Ignore the resistance pictures etc, all the pictorials are wrong on a late bay. Just set it to read full when the float is all the way up. Use a yard stick thru the filler like I did.
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furgo
Samba Member
Joined: September 06, 2016
Posts: 944
Location: Southern Germany
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| Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 4:41 am Post subject: Re: Late Bay Fuel sender |
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Oh, I was not implying that the sender was not working, quite the contrary. I was trying to reassure the OP, as his sender seems to work at least like mine, so I think he should be fine. As per bending the arm, as I said, I've not done it yet. I'll probably do it outside with nicer summer weather. I seem to remember you or someone else posted some nice instructions on how to do it a while ago.
It'd be nice to have a reference (even if roughly) as to which angle the elbow of the float's arm needs to be bent at, so that the calibration steps are reproduceable and the bend-measure cycle does not need to be done from scratch by every bus owner. As far as I can tell, no one has done that yet.
In any case, I stand corrected when I said that the sender output might not be linear. I just did a quick check and the resistance vs. swing degrees seems to be mostly linear. Thus the gauge reading should also be linear.
On the picture, the float arm's complete arc from empty to full is 60 °. The resistance values on the end and intermediate positions are:
- Empty tank (0 °): 76.2 Ω
- 1/2 tank (30 °): 31.1 Ω
- Full tank (60 °): 10.5 Ω
Calculating the theoretical resistance value on the middle mark: (76.2 Ω - 10.5 Ω) / 2 = 32.85 Ω, which is close enough to the measured 31.1 Ω. For a more accurate measurement it'd be best to hook up the gauge to see how sensitive it is on the middle mark, but I just wanted to do a quick test.
In any case, what I take from this is that Ratwell's picture should not be used as a reference for this sender (I'm not sure what sender or model year it applies to, tbh).
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Goach2
Samba Member
Joined: November 20, 2017
Posts: 521
Location: Niagara Region, Ontario
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| Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:01 am Post subject: Re: Late Bay Fuel sender |
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Thanks Gents for taking the time, appreciate the updated pic Furgo.
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Ride_On
Samba Member
Joined: August 27, 2015
Posts: 385
Location: Ottawa, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 9:11 am Post subject: Re: Late Bay Fuel sender |
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I have to have a look at our sender in the spring. It's a bit wonky post-conversion, but that likely has more to do with the fact that it lived in a somewhat caved in tank and is now in a clean new-to-us fuel tank.
Thanks for adding the details and pics!
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1977 Westfalia 2.0 FI Skills EJ25 w SubaruGears 5sp
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=687254
2018 Golf Sportwagen 4MO DSG (Dieselgated 2013 Golf Wagon TDI DSG) |
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skills@eurocarsplus
Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007
Posts: 16859
Location: sticksville, ct.
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| Posted: Thu Feb 01, 2018 7:20 am Post subject: Re: Late Bay Fuel sender |
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| Ride_On wrote: |
I have to have a look at our sender in the spring. It's a bit wonky post-conversion, but that likely has more to do with the fact that it lived in a somewhat caved in tank and is now in a clean new-to-us fuel tank.
Thanks for adding the details and pics! |
Yes, it was a little wonky for sure. But you have a nice access panel now, so its ez to get to
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| gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
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| Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
| Brian wrote: |
| Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
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Ride_On
Samba Member
Joined: August 27, 2015
Posts: 385
Location: Ottawa, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Feb 01, 2018 8:30 am Post subject: Re: Late Bay Fuel sender |
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You bet - thanks buddy!!
| skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
| Yes, it was a little wonky for sure. But you have a nice access panel now, so its ez to get to |
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1977 Westfalia 2.0 FI Skills EJ25 w SubaruGears 5sp
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=687254
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Goach2
Samba Member
Joined: November 20, 2017
Posts: 521
Location: Niagara Region, Ontario
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| Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 3:57 pm Post subject: Re: Late Bay Fuel sender |
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Ok, so I'm ready to install the new sender and what do I find? The 'teeth' or cogs that lock it in are offset of the originals! This means that the sender will have to sit counter-clockwise one tooth of where the original sat.
Has anyone come across this before? I'd like to make sure it's not going to bind against the side when the float starts to move up. I was thinking I could also switch the side that the float is attached to, so that it points away from the wall and give a little more clearance.
Does this sound like it'll work?!
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Amskeptic
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Joined: October 18, 2002
Posts: 8568
Location: All Across The Country
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| Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 4:15 pm Post subject: Re: Late Bay Fuel sender |
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| Goach2 wrote: |
Ok, so I'm ready to install the new sender and what do I find? The 'teeth' or cogs that lock it in are offset of the originals! This means that the sender will have to sit counter-clockwise one tooth of where the original sat.
Has anyone come across this before? I'd like to make sure it's not going to bind against the side when the float starts to move up. I was thinking I could also switch the side that the float is attached to, so that it points away from the wall and give a little more clearance.
Does this sound like it'll work?! |
I'd like to warn you that those damn cut-outs can be fiddle-f**ky and make you swear that the thing is totally off.
Installed, the electrical spades should be facing you pretty much "due south".
The unit should go down into the slots with the spades sort of facing more towards the battery. The float should be facing rearward in the installed position.
The gauge markings are not linear. The resistance is most assuredly not linear, you can see the windings are wound more tightly at one end. As the gauge gets closer to empty, the gauge needle has to travel further for fewer gallons consumed.
To ensure that the gauge makes it to "full", I have found that many new sender units need a little boost. Yes, you move the full limit stop over a tad, until the gauge is happy, then you gently bend the arm so the float is back to where it originally was in the full position.
It is all a delight.
Colin
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