Author |
Message |
tinlizard Samba Member
Joined: June 28, 2010 Posts: 74 Location: Murfreesboro, TN
|
Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 1:28 pm Post subject: Auto trans in 68-71 Bay window ?? |
|
|
Does anyone have experience with installing an auto trans in an early (68-71) Bay window? If not experience, solids ideas and theories would help.
I have no interest in discussing why I want to do this, or whether it's a good/bad idea (unless the whether is technical). Not wishing to be an *hole, it's just that all the previous threads I can find seem to degenerate to this off-topic angle.
It seems as if the type 3 auto would be the easiest swap. Any ideas?
Thanks!
Dave _________________ 68 Beetle Vert
70 Single Cab
79 Transporter |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Abscate Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014 Posts: 22670 Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
|
Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 1:35 pm Post subject: Re: Auto trans in 68-71 Bay window ?? |
|
|
Are you sure you can get CV joints and axles the right lengthS , with a capital S, for this conversion? That could be a crashing halt. _________________ .ssS! |
|
Back to top |
|
|
airschooled Air-Schooled
Joined: April 04, 2012 Posts: 12728 Location: on a bike ride somewhere
|
Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 2:11 pm Post subject: Re: Auto trans in 68-71 Bay window ?? |
|
|
Transaxle output flanges are easy enough to swap. If I was installing a used trans, I would have them off to replace the output seals anyway.
Type 3 auto might be one way to go, but what about an early (003?) automatic from a 73-75(?) bus? The input shaft would need to be shortened, and a vacuum hookup plumbed in, but it might be easier, since it was made for a bus.
Wasted Youth has an excellent thread documenting the rebuild of one, so you can see all about the parts included and how they fit in.
Robbie _________________ Learn how your vintage VW works. And why it doesn't!
One-on-one tech help for your Volkswagen:
www.airschooled.com |
|
Back to top |
|
|
pioneer1 Samba Member
Joined: February 11, 2008 Posts: 2069 Location: Ontario Canada
|
Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 2:27 pm Post subject: Re: Auto trans in 68-71 Bay window ?? |
|
|
shifter cables are NLA so you'd need a complete donor. Would you also use a pancake engine? _________________ "Always waiting for tomorrow ruined everything"
'85 Porsche 911 Targa
'76 Westfalia project |
|
Back to top |
|
|
tinlizard Samba Member
Joined: June 28, 2010 Posts: 74 Location: Murfreesboro, TN
|
Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 2:57 pm Post subject: Re: Auto trans in 68-71 Bay window ?? |
|
|
I could get long/short T3 axles, but haven't confirmed whether they would be a proper fit.
003 is certainly a possibility, if it's the better way to go.
Parts sourcing can be accomplished, I think, whatever I may need. I will use a stock ( but bumped to 1904cc) upright engine in the bus.
I'll search for Wasted Youth's post right now. _________________ 68 Beetle Vert
70 Single Cab
79 Transporter |
|
Back to top |
|
|
danfromsyr Samba Member
Joined: March 01, 2004 Posts: 15144 Location: Syracuse, NY
|
Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 3:02 pm Post subject: Re: Auto trans in 68-71 Bay window ?? |
|
|
to retain the T-1 engine, you'll need the T-III automatic flexplate as it's unique to a 1600 automatic fitment.
you'll either need to source a 'universal' case or hog out a hole in the DS face of the T-1 motor flange to access the 3 flexplate to torque converter bolts.
you;ll need the automatic from most any year bay. even aircooled vanagon. so 73-83. you can use a Waterboxer at but the cooler may interfere with the mounting into a Bay.
you'll need bay bus automatic driver & passenger axle shafts, they are unique and specific differing lengths
the T-III automatic willhave too high of a R&P unless you build up a much more powerful motor.
you will need to figure out the shifting cable, and the throttle linkage.. later AT 76-83 the throttle linkage is tied into the kickdown function of the automatic.
73-75 uses vacuum and an electric switch on the throttle pedal to facilitate in kick down.. _________________
Abscate wrote: |
These are the reasons we have words like “wanker” |
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
airschooled Air-Schooled
Joined: April 04, 2012 Posts: 12728 Location: on a bike ride somewhere
|
Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 5:22 pm Post subject: Re: Auto trans in 68-71 Bay window ?? |
|
|
I asked about putting a late model bug auto-stick in an early bay a few weeks ago, but most people just heckled me so I took my beer and went home.
Robbie _________________ Learn how your vintage VW works. And why it doesn't!
One-on-one tech help for your Volkswagen:
www.airschooled.com |
|
Back to top |
|
|
KentABQ Samba Member
Joined: September 11, 2016 Posts: 2406 Location: Albuquerque NM
|
Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 6:09 pm Post subject: Re: Auto trans in 68-71 Bay window ?? |
|
|
asiab3 wrote: |
I asked about putting a late model bug auto-stick in an early bay a few weeks ago, but most people just heckled me so I took my beer and went home.
Robbie |
...and took a header down the stairs.
Ya know you're never gonna live that down, right Robbie? _________________ -Kent-
1976 Riviera, 1.8l FI chrome yellow VAN - "Chloe"
"I must say, how can you be in a bad mood driving this vehicle full of vibrant color.
Cars of today are so bland in comparison. It's like driving a celebration!" ---WildIdea
Bus ownership via emoticons:
---williamM |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Abscate Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014 Posts: 22670 Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
|
Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 6:22 pm Post subject: Re: Auto trans in 68-71 Bay window ?? |
|
|
Tough crowd when the band together to heckle you, kick you down the stairs, force you to convert, tell you your shafts are too short, and drink your beer _________________ .ssS! |
|
Back to top |
|
|
sodbuster Samba Member
Joined: August 08, 2004 Posts: 1086 Location: wherever my baywindow takes me.
|
Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 7:18 pm Post subject: Re: Auto trans in 68-71 Bay window ?? |
|
|
asiab3 wrote: |
I asked about putting a late model bug auto-stick in an early bay a few weeks ago, but most people just heckled me so I took my beer and went home.
Robbie |
I would have heckled you too But I also would have explained why that is a very bad idea. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
TomWesty Samba Member
Joined: November 23, 2007 Posts: 3482 Location: Wyoming,USA
|
Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 8:00 pm Post subject: Re: Auto trans in 68-71 Bay window ?? |
|
|
My concern with the T3 tranny would be longevity. A bus is significantly heavier than any T3. I’m sure they didn’t engineer the T3 tranny for any more load than what was needed. I guess if you had the correct gear ratios to move a bus and drove smoothly and conservatively it might last a while.... _________________ If you haven't bled on them, you haven't worked on them.
Visit: www.tomcoryell.com and check out my music! |
|
Back to top |
|
|
tinlizard Samba Member
Joined: June 28, 2010 Posts: 74 Location: Murfreesboro, TN
|
Posted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:38 pm Post subject: Re: Auto trans in 68-71 Bay window ?? |
|
|
Thanks, Danfromsyr!!! Exactly the kind of info I'm after.
So T3 flexplate, T2 auto axles, for sure. Sounds like 73-75 T2 trans would be best since the shift/linkage picture is simpler.
My calculation says the T2 auto is almost exactly the same as the manual, final drive-wise. 4.35 auto vs 5.37 x .82 = 4.40 for the manual.
Does anyone know whether the chassis-mounted shift linkage tube is different auto vs. manual? Can't tell from the Bentley. _________________ 68 Beetle Vert
70 Single Cab
79 Transporter |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Amskeptic Samba Member
Joined: October 18, 2002 Posts: 8568 Location: All Across The Country
|
Posted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:50 pm Post subject: Re: Auto trans in 68-71 Bay window ?? |
|
|
tinlizard wrote: |
Thanks, Danfromsyr!!! Exactly the kind of info I'm after.
So T3 flexplate, T2 auto axles, for sure. Sounds like 73-75 T2 trans would be best since the shift/linkage picture is simpler.
My calculation says the T2 auto is almost exactly the same as the manual, final drive-wise. 4.35 auto vs 5.37 x .82 = 4.40 for the manual.
Does anyone know whether the chassis-mounted shift linkage tube is different auto vs. manual? Can't tell from the Bentley. |
The bay auto box came only with the 5-point Type 4 engine/bell housing/nose cone mounts. The bell housing has two "ears" at the top to go into bell housing mount that has two rubber mounts just outboard. The '68-'71 bus has none of the bell housing mount super structure.
Likewise, the early bays with the 3-point Type 1 engine/transaxle mounts that were designed to handle weight and torque loads at the outboard ends of the Type 1 mustache bar and a different nose cone mount to the torsion tube.
You will find that the 003 automatic nose cone mount is *not designed to handle constant weight*. It is depending on the bell housing mount.
If you are planning on using a Type 4 003 autobox bell housing with a Type 1 engine, I think you are going to find a load of issues cropping up.
Colin _________________ www.itinerant-air-cooled.com |
|
Back to top |
|
|
danfromsyr Samba Member
Joined: March 01, 2004 Posts: 15144 Location: Syracuse, NY
|
Posted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:35 pm Post subject: Re: Auto trans in 68-71 Bay window ?? |
|
|
he's definately going to have some obstacles..
the front trans mount is a good point but hardly too tough an obstacle.. well unless he can't or doesn't know anyone who can fabricate some.
in a friends 73 bay automatic, we made a new front transmission mount using a round vanagon front mount and some heavy angle steel and a welder.. wasn't difficult. and allowed for a better front mount.. though that 73 bus had the over the bellhousing engine carrier mount too. _________________
Abscate wrote: |
These are the reasons we have words like “wanker” |
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
tinlizard Samba Member
Joined: June 28, 2010 Posts: 74 Location: Murfreesboro, TN
|
Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:16 am Post subject: Re: Auto trans in 68-71 Bay window ?? |
|
|
I agree, guys, bit of an obstacle. But I'm only a few miles from Rusty Bottom Garage in Smyrna, TN, and Billy has good ideas and mad skills. I think we can hang the nose safely and securely. _________________ 68 Beetle Vert
70 Single Cab
79 Transporter |
|
Back to top |
|
|
danfromsyr Samba Member
Joined: March 01, 2004 Posts: 15144 Location: Syracuse, NY
|
Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 2:09 pm Post subject: Re: Auto trans in 68-71 Bay window ?? |
|
|
you'll spend most time figuringout the throttle, shifter electrical and vacuum linkages.
but as FYI, on our front mount, we moved the vanagon round part ahead of the rear torsion and then made the trans to mount bracket reach upto the vanagon mount.
as there is very little room between the transmission and the torsion tube.
the front mount is for the driveline to push against in a fore/aft location.
the rear mustache bar is for the side to side twist force.
ok, I did a little google-fu on the type3 automatic engine case.
you'll need to relieve the Type1 case in a similar fashion at the bottom of the bellhousing to access the flexplate to torque converter bolts. unless you source a T-III automatic 1600cc engine complete and convert it to upright cooling.
and a pic of a T-III flexplate
_________________
Abscate wrote: |
These are the reasons we have words like “wanker” |
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
tristessa Samba Member
Joined: April 07, 2004 Posts: 3992 Location: Portland, OR
|
Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 2:15 pm Post subject: Re: Auto trans in 68-71 Bay window ?? |
|
|
TomWesty wrote: |
My concern with the T3 tranny would be longevity. A bus is significantly heavier than any T3. I’m sure they didn’t engineer the T3 tranny for any more load than what was needed. |
The transmission portion is essentially the same between T3, T4 and early (003) Bus automatics, the differential/governor section is what changed. Should be just fine... |
|
Back to top |
|
|
tinlizard Samba Member
Joined: June 28, 2010 Posts: 74 Location: Murfreesboro, TN
|
Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:56 am Post subject: Re: Auto trans in 68-71 Bay window ?? |
|
|
Thanks to everyone who contributed! Next step for me is to begin sourcing pieces/parts.
Still looking for an answer as to whether the long tube under the chassis that holds the shifter rod for manual trannys is the same and in in the same location as the one that the auto cable runs through. _________________ 68 Beetle Vert
70 Single Cab
79 Transporter |
|
Back to top |
|
|
danfromsyr Samba Member
Joined: March 01, 2004 Posts: 15144 Location: Syracuse, NY
|
Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 9:02 am Post subject: Re: Auto trans in 68-71 Bay window ?? |
|
|
personally I would build around and source a Morse style push-pull cable for this vs sourcing the rare and hardly ever pulled for parts stock bit.
I offer these ideas as I've the same plan myself.
well an automatic in a 71 bay, but not with a air cooled motor _________________
Abscate wrote: |
These are the reasons we have words like “wanker” |
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
WestyPop Samba Member
Joined: February 08, 2005 Posts: 1732 Location: SoCal
|
Posted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 1:18 am Post subject: Re: Auto trans in 68-71 Bay window ?? |
|
|
Just a thought, since the torque converter heat does migrate into the engine case, as well as the tranny... the waterboxer Vanagon automatic trans cases have taps for external ATF cooling, instead of the (overrated IMHO) air-cooled converters of the Type 2 & 80-82 Vanagon bus automatics.
As far as gearing, with a 1904cc (stroker) engine, you might even do better with a slightly higher ring & pinion ratio to keep the cruising RPMs down. _________________ Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.
______________________________________
J.R.
68 Westy
(+ others) |
|
Back to top |
|
|
|