My 1760 Stroker, the 1641, .... and the bastard

[dennismcd707]

I’m putting together an off-road rail buggy ……and there’s only one reason that I own it. It's because I get off on engine building, tuning, and testing. I bought 2 new cases so I could carefully build 2 well balanced performance engines. I've already got the parts for a 1760 stroker and a 1641...........plus a bastard engine.

(as of 3/21/2018.... this thread is dedicated to only one of the engines, the 1760 'mini' stroker, being built for my sand rail/pleasure craft "Carmela's Concession")

The rail came with two partial engines, plus I bought a third. Only one case is viable for use, and here it is. The only history I have on the engine is what I’ve gathered from tearing it down last summer/2017. I took it apart carefully.... I was impressed by how clean everything was. That gave me the feeling that it hadn’t been too long since it was last assembled, but it wasn't based on any measurements taken.

It wasn’t a leaker and there were no signs of any previous overheating. It had slip in 87’s by Mahle, a stock crank (mains ground .010 under) with stock rods, and everything seemed to move nice and freely. The cam lobes looked wore down, like it had a lot of miles on it. This was based on nothing more than a visual check of the cam lobes. Compared to everything else, that surprised me. Later, I tried to remove the cylinder studs from the case, but I stopped. They wouldn’t budge and I didn’t want to damage the case.

Side clearances on the rod caps were all pretty evenly matched and in tolerance. I still have the rods attached to the crank. I never took ‘em off. This could help me in my efforts to build a bastard ‘junk yard’ engine, so to speak. Everything looked great, I had a re-usable case, and then I began to plan out what I wanted to do. It didn’t take but a day to realize that I needed to start with a brand new case if I wanted to build the engine that I was hoping to build.

Ok, no problem. I’ll buy a new case for the 1760 Stroker and I’ll use the old case for my second engine. I figured it would be fun to build another engine, as I hadn’t built one since the early ninety’s. So, if building one would be fun, building two would be a complete blast, so I decided to go for it. I figured I’ll keep the second one more stock, but full flowed, with a counter weighted crank and fully balanced, electronic points replacement device, well thought out induction, and slowly and carefully assembled.......... with minimal short cuts. (I'm just sayin'/nobody's perfect) That’s what I had initially planned anyway.

Then I saw a crack. It was in a place on the case by the oil pressure sending unit, just as it’s described in the Tom Wilson VW Engine book. Well, I tried the trick with the torch, and nothing happened. I’m thinking, well, maybe that trick doesn’t work 100 percent of the time…… on 100 percent of the cracks. Maybe the case isn’t really cracked. The more I stared at it, the more unsure I became.

Oh, screw it. I decided right then that I’ll just buy a second case. 50 year old magnesium cases are gonna crack, have cracked, or just don’t work like they did when they were new. At least that’s the opinion I’ve formed after doing a little research. Ok, fast forward to today. I’ve got my two new engine cases, 2 new cranks, cams, etc. and I’m about ready to go. Then I start looking at that 3rd engine case. How about I put it together with the parts I have from dismantling 3 engines?

My idea about building a 3rd Bastard engine came to me after I read the $200 Grapes Of Wrath Engine Rebuild thread on this site.
I’m not sure if the case is cracked or not, but so what? It also appears to have passed the flashlight through the main bearing saddles/webbing test.

But………it still looks like #2 main is not a true circle anymore. Surprise surprise. I’m getting a range of about .040 when I measured it using a telescoping gage. It was difficult getting my hands inside the case to measure, let alone doing it several times to see if the size was repeating, and then several more times, trying to space out the readings 90 degrees apart from each other to see just how round the hole was. Did I mention I’m doing this on a case with the cylinder studs still attached and constantly in the way? It’s not easy to do, and it’s frustrating, especially because I need the readings to be accurate.

I don’t have the numbers in front of me, but I know the size of #2 main isn't good. From high to low it ranged about .040 inches. This was the first one I checked because from what I read, it was the one that most likely would be found to be hammered out of size. The other ones were fine. Well, I’m still thinking that I’d like to put this thing together regardless, as a 3rd engine. The bastard will be a side project. I’d spring for some inexpensive new heads, a cam & lifters, new gaskets of course, new rings, possibly wrist pin bushings.........I don't know.

One important thing that I have to remember is: the more new stuff I’d buy, the bigger risk I’m taking. It may not have enough oil pressure to allow it to run for very long. Or it’s possible that the little line/deformity in the case that I initially thought was a crack, then decided it wasn’t, then it was again, and now it's not......... is indeed a crack, adding to an already taxed and tired case.

Any money spent, other than the cost of the heads and cam would have been a waste, and that’s no good at all…………when BABY NEEDS A NEW PAIR OF SHOES! (real meaning: I need to buy other ‘more important’ things, stuff for my off-road buggy pleasure craft mobile engine carrier that goes fast but doesn't stop so good).

I'm in dire need of such items as: wheels, tires, gages, lights, disc brake conversion kits, transmissions, alternators, dial bore gages, etc. But I definitely think it would be fun to piece this old thing together, using mostly used parts. If it ends up running well, but uses a quart of oil now and again, who cares? Do you think I’m wasting my time with this idea, or is it worth investigating further? (strictly as a side project/experiment)


The case does have its issues, aside from its age and the #2 main. It’s got a funky film on the inside, like it’s being eaten away by some bacteria. That’s just what it reminds me of, and I’m not basing that statement on anything factual. Just an observation. Also, the bottom of the case has been eaten away from the sulfur that forms in dirty oil. (or something like that) I read that magnesium will deteriorate if old dirty oil is left in the case for any length of time, and if that’s true, I have a case that suffers from the dirty oil gremlins. It’s bad, but I should be able to still seal the case around the oil screen and cover, I think.

There’s also a repair up top on the left side of the case. I don’t know what type of repair it is, so I don’t know what to call it. It looks like one of the two studs sticking out of the case for mounting the fuel pump had broken off, damaging the case. It’s close to the distributor hole, but not quite there. It looks like a type of putty was used that hardens upon sitting. The repair looks solid, and pretty clean, like somebody knew what they were doing. (I’m gonna laugh if I find out that it’s a hack job.) And there are also areas of the bearing saddles that look like they’re deteriorating. All the more reason (I think) NOT to spend a nickel more than is absolutely necessary on this Bastard.

.

The case number indicates an aftermarket case, so maybe that’s why it’s in such good shape. I’m eager to hear from others who have more experience working with air cooled VW engines. The Grapes of Wrath $200 Engine Build thread is my new favorite bathroom reading material. (Huh?) Ok, that’s not true. It’s usually a book. Lately it’s been Tom Wilson’s VW engine rebuilding book.

The 1760 stroker and the 1641 smoker are real and the whole purpose of this thread. The Bastard may get a lot of attention, but who cares? I’m ready to assemble in my new found temple. (The cat’s privy/basement/laundry room…..my new temple.)
Nothing has been assembled but just about everything has been purchased. I want to weld an old gland nut to my engine stand, but to do so required me to purchase a welder. (Carmela’s concession #23) In order to use the welder in my garage, I have to get somebody over to the house who knows a little about home wiring (but just a little……it’s cheaper that way). I read that I need to dedicate at least one 20 amp circuit to the welder. Listen, I don’t know squat about home wiring. I only know that in my garage, I have an electrical panel with 2 of the old style round glass fuses. I’ve had to replace them twice when I tried to use some power tools at the same time I had the lights on and the radio playing. Since then I know better. One electric heater, 3 lights, and the radio playing seems to be ok. To use the radial saw, first turn off all electrical devices (except radio) and turn saw on. If fuse doesn’t blow, it’s safe to turn a light on or two. I mean, c’mon………that’s no way to live, right?

I really want to assemble my cranks while they’re horizontal, and I really want to try to weld something. (I’ve never welded before. Total newbie.) I really want the wiring in my garage to magically upgrade itself, and I really want ……So I’m kinda stuck on that problem for the moment, but I still have work to do on all 3 cases.

I’m about to drill and tap 2 of the cases (1 new case and the Bastard) for full flow, then I have to wash and thoroughly clean ‘em, bolt ‘em together and start taking measurements. I’ve printed copies of the VW engine blueprinting spec. sheets that I found here on theSamba, and I want to take lots and lots of key measurements. I’ve got a surface plate, height transfer stand, gage blocks, test indicators, travel indicators, mics, etc. When I bought the cases, I could have purchased ‘em from any number of places, but because I wanted the machining done by experts (one of the books I have mentioned RIMCO as being reputable), I purchased through fat performance/RIMCO in sunny CA.

One of the cases was clearanced for a stroker, machined for a sand seal and then drill & tapped for full flow. The case looks good to go, ready for pre-mantle cleaning and measuring. For some reason it wasn’t so easy with the second case. I’ll admit to being part of the problem, and share some of the blame. I didn’t order the cases at the same time, plus I kept adding to the list of items I wanted to purchase. It was not a good experience at all. I would have spent a whole lot more money there if I didn't feel like I was getting the run around. I'm slowly learning......Anyway, the stuff was just crammed in the boxes without any care. Even the Mahle box holding my expensive P & C's, each p & c only wrapped in a thin bag, was falling apart and all squished. (the cheaper CAST Mahle P & C's that I got through AC.N were nicely packaged by somebody who cared, in both plastic and paper. I could tell right away, somebody appreciated my business.

I'm just sayin'

Anyway, when I bought the second case, I asked for it to be drilled and tapped for full flow. They charged me for it, then they didn’t, then they did ….. I mean, the invoices were a mess. AND IT NEVER GOT DRILLED AND TAPPED FOR FULL FLOW!! I was so pissed………but I just dropped it. I did not want to have to talk to them again on the phone. (I was a bit more organized when I ordered the rest of the engine components through AC.N. A much better experience.) Still, the 2nd round of purchases led to a 2nd learning curve for me as well, and I have to apologize to John. I was too long winded and gave way too much info. Next time? Nice and short and to the point. John’s a busy man…... But I also saw him post on another thread where he gets on some guy for not “reading the details” of a certain post before he commented on it. Hmmm, reading the details is important ‘some of the time’, but not ‘always’? ok

Live and learn……nobody’s perfect, life’s a beach, I’d rather be sailing, now onto mantling.

I bought my sand rail ‘ONLY’ because I needed something to put an engine into. It was an afterthought. Don’t get me wrong, I don’t regret buying it. Not at all. But the main reason for any of this stuff that’s piling up in the garage and in my basement is the direct result of my fascination with the air cooled VW engine .......When I bought my first one in the early 80’s, I got the 'bug'. It may have laid dormant for a long time, but it stayed. And now, the bug…..or the air cooled itch, has surfaced again. I didn’t have a pot to piss in the first time around. 2018 is a different story.

Lets begin.

[Danwvw]

1760cc That is an odd build. Do you have free new 87's? I would just go to the 88's but either way. In having done one with 88's and the short 5.325" rods so the engine comes out stock width I would say you may have some piston to crank clearance issues with a 74mm stroke and the small 87mm pistons actually the 92mm piston and cylinders would clear. 74mm cranks usually clear a stock case. This one is a junk case but has some good studs etc... and on this case The 10mm studs will need inserts!

Looks like the case chipped out around the fuel pump stud. They must have patched it with JB-Weld Epoxy. If it's not cracked all the way through the case and the fuel pump stud doesn't strip out It's probably not going to be a problem. Maybe run an electric fuel pump with this case?
On The crack near the oil sender, it is common but I can't see one. JB-Weld works if cleaned with carb cleaner and you can get some JB in the crack. Just JB-Weld in a new sender. I never tighten them all the way in.

_________________
1960 Beetle And 1679cc DP W-100 & Dual Zeniths!

[dennismcd707]

hey Dan ..... all the stuff is already bought. And I'll have no clearance issues. The 1760 has a forged 4140 CW 74mm stroke crank, using forged Mahle 87mm slip ins and 5.400" 4340 Forged H-Beam rods. I understand that I'll probably have to shim the cylinders around .1 inches, but I'll have no clearance issues. The case has been clearanced for a 82mm stroker, and mine is only 74 mm.

As for the 1641, I don't know why it's an odd combo. It's just a stock engine with the next size up from a stock bore size. And the stroke is a stock 69 mm. The crank isn't stock, but the stroke is. If there are issues with clearance when I start assembling, I'll deal with it then. Hey man.....you just skimmed through all the important details in the post. It's all in there.

as for the bastard........why would I be concerned about the repair on the case? I took the engine apart. It had no issues. (that I could see visually and with my limited knowledge ) It's not a new repair. And electric fuel pump? It would have to be free, because I don't own one, and I'm not gonna spend extra money on a bastard. (nothing against bastards, just no money spent on THIS bastard.) Hey Dan.....Grapes of Wrath, remember?

But seriously, I appreciate any and all input. Shared knowledge is good.

[Danwvw]

Yeah, I just didn't quite understand what was what with these cases and pictures. It looks like a neat collection of cases and parts. Your choice of rods will be better than the 5.325" that I used with 88's when it comes to the narrower 87mm Piston and cylinders. Still not a big deal probably need to grind on the piston skirts some.

Your 5.4" Rods with the 74mm crankshaft in addition to needing a lot of cylinder shim, will need measured and cut new length pushrods. With 5.325" rods, you can get away with .020" cylinder shims and the engine remains stock width for fitting the exhaust system and for fitting the car. If you went to 92mm pistons and cylinders the larger pistons would clear I think.

_________________
1960 Beetle And 1679cc DP W-100 & Dual Zeniths!

[rockurob]

Dennis your quote:
"The case does have its issues, aside from its age and the #2 main. It’s got a funky film on the inside, like it’s being eaten away by some bacteria. That’s just what it reminds me of, and I’m not basing that statement on anything factual. Just an observation. Also, the bottom of the case has been eaten away from the sulfur that forms in dirty oil. (or something like that) I read that magnesium will deteriorate if old dirty oil is left in the case for any length of time, and if that’s true, I have a case that suffers from the dirty oil gremlins. It’s bad, but I should be able to still seal the case around the oil screen and cover, I think. "

I had a case like that ..... look beautiful on the outside..... when opened up....junk.....my oil strainer/plate aera....totally eaten up.....
was from mouse piss/urine
_________________
70's....Owner "Der Bug Shoppe" Okla. City

70 Baja Street Rod Project
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/1644125.jpg
Drag Buggy project:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/1726674.jpg
61 Rag Project:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=1188580

[dennismcd707]

I ordered some more new parts. Here's my new nose cone and some magnetic oil drain plugs. It's winter, cold and snowy. A good time for a rock n roll book, a game of euchre, or some quality time with your pets.

I took apart, cleaned, and then re-torqued the two case halves of the bastard again. I wanted to make sure my measurements were accurate. I was pretty bummed out the first time around with the number two main bearing measurements. Anyway, I did the measuring again, using a telescoping gage, and my numbers were much more accurate ..... and pleasing to see.

Case Measurements: (4 diff. readings/off-set 90 deg.)

main #4) 1.988, 1.988, 1.987, 1.988
main #3) 2.575, 2.575, 2.576, 2.578
main #2) 2.576, 2.580, 2.568, 2.579 (a range of .012 is better than .040)
main #1) 2.579, 2.579, 2.579, 2.578

The bastard crank is ground .010 u/s, the case has been line bored once to 65.5mm (.020 in. o/s) and the thrust looks untouched at .866 in.

I'm gonna go ahead and order main, cam, and rod bearings for it. We're gonna put this bastard together and get it running good. The oil drain plate surface is jacked, but I'll give it some good glue/sealer and it should be the least of my worries. (Right Modok?)............run it!

I drilled and tapped the bastard and the new 1641 case for free flow. Because of youtube, I felt confident in what I was doing.

I also took a pic of my new stroker sitting in its saddles, just waiting to perform. .......................(morning wood from engine components. Is it just me?)

I told you the bastard would get a lot of attention. Maybe a thread for each build? Too much? (I'm building 3 at the same time............but really slowly)

[heywebonya]

Dennis,

Before you get too far on the cruddy bastard case, replace the oil strainer studs with bolts from the inside of the case. Since you don't have much material to rethread if stripped out.

Great collection!

-Jeff
_________________
If I knew what I was doing; I wouldn't be building a buggy!

[chrisflstf]

That case with the corrosion on the sump is toast

[dennismcd707]

the case with corrosion is junk

OK, great reply!

..........yea, I had planned on using at least a couple of bolts and nuts to help seal the bastard, along with plenty of sealer. Look, I don't expect much out of this engine. If it runs good and doesn't leak too much.....or burn too much oil, then I've learned a little about air cooled engines. "Science Project"

I also had a tough time finding the right bolts to use with my engine stands. The bolts I had only had threads on the ends, so I got to "COBBLE". This is typical Dennis stuff. (I've since bought several 10mm x 1.5 pitch x 30, 40 50, & 60 mm bolts, just to have them.

........ and lastly, I bought a rebuild kit for this Weber/Motorcraft/Holley 5200 carburetor. Now I have to buy some heat riser tubes for the manifold. Oh............ and again "LASTLY", I'm ready to buy a rebuilt transmission, and I'm hoping to find a place near me that can do it. (Munk's???) The reason is just I'd like to be able to drive my core there, and if it's usable, then I don't have to deal with shipping. Anywhere in lower Michigan would be good, because I don't mind driving. But I think there should be a decent place in the Detroit area...........or at least I would think so. I'm just looking for a stock 12 volt swing axle type 1 tranny, and I've got about 6 or 7 hundred bucks saved up for it. Any suggestions?

[dennismcd707]

I haven't quit the engine building process. I'm on theSamba every day, reading and planning, and if I'm being honest, ....... sometimes drooling over some of the photos on here. (mostly of the engines, but some of the buggies and rails do it for me too. ) I like the look of some of the color coordinated engines, and I've thought about going that route. But then I think back on what John Muir wrote about when discussing engine heat, and the Tom Wilson VW engine book too (I think), where they suggest keeping it stock black to help with keeping things cool. (black tin, shroud, pulley, etc.)

If the difference in temp is negligible, I might consider color coordination, but right now, it's gonna be black with the occasional hint of chrome and yellow. (the wires are yellow......at least for the 1760) I've had some other projects come up at home recently that have taken more time to complete than anticipated, so the engines have taken a back seat for the moment. My cranks are being properly stored, either upright and vertical or nestled in their bearing saddles, and the other parts are being kept safe and clean. Meanwhile, I keep ordering parts for the entire sand rail, and my collection of cool stuff keeps on growing. This is getting expensive ........... but it is oh oh oh so much fun. I expect to be engine mantling .......... (3 at a time, why not?) .......... in the next week or two. Stay tuned, I hear the bastard calling.

[[email protected]]

I strongly recommend 1 thread per engine, or half of the thread is going to be confusion.
_________________
It's just advice, do whatever you want with it!

Please do NOT send me Private Messages through the Samba PM System (I will not see them). Send me an e-mail to john at aircooled dot net

"Like" our Facebook page at
http://www.facebook.com/vwpartsaircoolednet
and get a 5% off code for use on one order for VW Parts ON OUR PARTS STORE WEBSITE, vwparts.aircooled.net

[madmike]

Hey Dennis, for more engine porn, check out the Buggy Builder Show @ the Lansing Center on the 11th 10:30-4pm one day only , Madmike
_________________
'Black Ice'Drag Buggy 'Turbo'
Rail Buggy 1915 turbo
76 Drag/Street bug 2180cc 'Turbo' 11:85 @113 mph"If I go any faster I'll burn up the Hamster" ,gets 28 mpg. also 10/09/22 11.90 @115 mph
"If I'm ever on Life Support,UNPLUG Me, Then Plug me back In see if that Works"

[dennismcd707]

Me? Write a confusing thread? Nope. Wouldn't happen!

Well, maybe.

I suppose ..... that sometimes when I read what I've written, I can get a little confused. So, I can see the problem. Yea, one thread for 3 engines probably won't be the easiest to follow, so I'll have to re-think my writing process.

Also, the show coming up next week in Lansing looks like fun, and I'll most certainly be there. Rail porn, engine porn, buggy porn, ............ man, what a fantastic treat, just what Sundays are for. Porn for men who have already seen porn. (I'll be at the show, in the corner, wearing a raincoat, a hat, and a really strange smile.)

Thanks for the tips John from Utah and MadMike from Michigan.

[[email protected]]

you can be as clear as you want, but there will be confusion if you are discussing 2 engines in one thread. It's also the reader, not just the writing.
_________________
It's just advice, do whatever you want with it!

Please do NOT send me Private Messages through the Samba PM System (I will not see them). Send me an e-mail to john at aircooled dot net

"Like" our Facebook page at
http://www.facebook.com/vwpartsaircoolednet
and get a 5% off code for use on one order for VW Parts ON OUR PARTS STORE WEBSITE, vwparts.aircooled.net

[dennismcd707]

I went ahead and finished up my measurements on the 1760 engine, and then checked it for burrs. Being a brand new case that was recently machined, there were burrs. I used to work at several different machine shops, so I've done my share of de-burring. Anyway, I also decided that this thread will be dedicated to just this engine, because this is the only engine I'm rebuilding right now. I just can't seem to find the time OR THE LOGIC in doing 3 engines all at the same time. Well, regardless of the reasons, this thread will be dedicated (at least for the time being) to the only engine that matters, at least at this time, the 1760.

After de-burring it, I had to clean it. Here's my helper checkin' out the bubbles.

[dennismcd707]

Well, I'm stuck. Either I'm an idiot, or my cases are different than stock (I doubt it), or both sets of my cam bearings are wrong. (I doubt it) So here's the problem. (I know this is going to be an easy fix. But I just am completely stuck. What in the hell is wrong here?) I can't figure out how they go. Every single book I have just says: Install cam bearings. The Wilson book even says "line up the tabs first". Ok, the tabs on the Thrust bearings don't line up to shit. Only tab that lines up with the slot in the cam bearing saddle is on the left side case. What about the other side? What in the hell am I not seeing, and why in the hell are the books so frickin' 'GENERAL' when it comes to cam bearing installation instructions? Jeez, I'm frickin' stuck..........and pissed off!

The pics below show one of the bearings lined up with the tab, all is well. Only 2 others line up. I know the pic is showing a bearing in the wrong spot, but it's there to show how the tabs don't even come close to lining up. They're always off by 180 deg and on the wrong side of the bearing. Help me please, this is embarrassing.

[[email protected]]

that flanged bearing (thrust bearing) goes in the same saddle on both L&R case halfs. 6 bearings total, 3 in each half. The flanged bearing goes nearest the oil pump, furthest from flywheel.

Cases are set up for only 1 thrust bearing shell. So if you are installing the double thrust set, either put a notch in the case, or what I do is remove the tang from the 2nd thrust bearing and it slips right in.
_________________
It's just advice, do whatever you want with it!

Please do NOT send me Private Messages through the Samba PM System (I will not see them). Send me an e-mail to john at aircooled dot net

"Like" our Facebook page at
http://www.facebook.com/vwpartsaircoolednet
and get a 5% off code for use on one order for VW Parts ON OUR PARTS STORE WEBSITE, vwparts.aircooled.net

[dennismcd707]

Thanks John, as usual. I knew where each bearing belonged, but the notches on the thrust bearing didn't make any sense. Jeez, I sure hope I'm not the only guy out there that was completely stopped in his tracks AND EXTREMELY ANGRY over the fact that the bearings have to be modified, and nothing on or in the packaging made a reference to that fact. That's just completely stupid, but I'll move on.

[74 Thing]

Dual thrust cam bearings you either have to file the case for the tang or remove it from the bearing

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...fying+case

[AlteWagen]