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75 Super with LED front turn signal wiring question
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daSCHISSnit
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 11:24 pm    Post subject: 75 Super with LED front turn signal wiring question Reply with quote

I shaved the front turn signals and put an LED strip on the front bumpers. Wired the led Black to Brown (ground) and LED yellow to the Black striped wire (same on both sides)

Issue: blinkers work just fine when the headlights are off but once the headlights are on, the blinkers don't blink. Why?

I know there is still one more wire in the front (grey) for the running lights.
I already have an LED relay for the signals.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 12:06 am    Post subject: Re: 75 Super with LED front turn signal wiring question Reply with quote

IF your fenders or buckets were not well grounded this could happen. Probably can read a voltage on the front fenders relative to Battery Neg. with the heads on.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:16 am    Post subject: Re: 75 Super with LED front turn signal wiring question Reply with quote

if the headlamp and signal light share a common ground point as is stock, a poor ground connection can place a positive voltage from the on headlamp onto the ground point, thus causing the problem you describe,

As other post suggested, check the grounds at the lights, make sure they are good, clean, tight etc....

you can test the ground by turning on the headlamps, turn light off, then measure the voltage from a good body point to the ground wire at the common ground point or at the signal bulb. if you see a voltage there with the headlamps on, you know you have a poor ground for the headlamp.


good luck, Bug On Brightly!
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daSCHISSnit
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:06 pm    Post subject: Re: 75 Super with LED front turn signal wiring question Reply with quote

so, I wired back in the original bulbs/holders and it looks like that even though I have an LED relay installed, I"ll still need LED load resistors
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:03 am    Post subject: Re: 75 Super with LED front turn signal wiring question Reply with quote

daSCHISSnit wrote:
so, I wired back in the original bulbs/holders and it looks like that even though I have an LED relay installed, I"ll still need LED load resistors

Is your LED compatible flasher relay a generic one or one designed for use with European cars? What is the make/model#? What are the terminal numbers on your relay? You should have a #31 for the ground wire and a #49a for the load output to the turn signal switch and bulbs. The input is either #49 or +. If the terminal numbers are different then your relay may not be compatible for a VW.

What you described earlier sounds like a ground problem. Did you troubleshoot for a bad ground? Your turn signal LED lights were grounding backward thru the headlight or parking light circuit. When you turn on the headlights the current flowing forward thru the circuit prevented the turn signals from grounding and they stopped working. Run a dedicated test wire from the black LED ground wire to a known good ground and see if the lights start working.
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daSCHISSnit
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:14 am    Post subject: Re: 75 Super with LED front turn signal wiring question Reply with quote

I'll have to check the relay terminals later today. It's just a generic LED relay.

As for the ground, I ran a separate ground wire to the black lead of the LED and still got the same results.

After I removed the temporarily wired in front stock turn signals (which blinked like normal), I left the front LEDs wired in and then I changed the rear bulb from LED back to incandescent and it started blinking. I've since ordered load resistors and will probably order another relay if the one I currently have is incorrect.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 11:50 am    Post subject: Re: 75 Super with LED front turn signal wiring question Reply with quote

You should not need a load resistor with the correct relay. I am running LED's all around and mine flash like they are supposed to.

I don't remember where I purchased mine (I think amazon), but it specifically states that its a solid state relay and can handle all led or a combination of led and incandescent. Check TX-73's build thread. I got the same flasher as he did.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 9:25 am    Post subject: Re: 75 Super with LED front turn signal wiring question Reply with quote

daSCHISSnit wrote:
It's just a generic LED relay.

As for the ground, I ran a separate ground wire to the black lead of the LED and still got the same results.

After I removed the temporarily wired in front stock turn signals (which blinked like normal), I left the front LEDs wired in and then I changed the rear bulb from LED back to incandescent and it started blinking. I've since ordered load resistors and will probably order another relay if the one I currently have is incorrect.

This really sounds like your relay doesn't like the low load (<2W) of LEDs and NEEDS the load of a stock incandescent bulb (21W) to work properly.



Look for an EP-35 flasher relay. They are made by different companies and common at most FLAPS. Look for the ones specifically marked as "LED" like below. These are designed to work in European systems (note the #31 and #49a terminal numbers) and many people here have reported good results in their Beetles both as an original replacement or as an LED compatible relay.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 11:57 am    Post subject: Re: 75 Super with LED front turn signal wiring question Reply with quote

So I have been drawing up a rewiring plan for my off-road rig with LEDs, and drawing up the circuits I ran into this problem-- Now I don't know if what I ran into is EXACTLY the same as what's happening to you because I don't know exactly what is in every stock beetle electrical component and haven't studied it, and don't exactly know what you've got going... Anyway...

I think the issue is this:

Traditional bulbs respond to more voltage. More voltage means it will be brighter.

Automotive LED's have voltage regulators on them and putting more voltage to it just means it's going to shed more power as heat prior to getting to the LED.

So while the lights are on, it may be the case that originally, more voltage was applied when you turned the turn signal switch on (Lights stayed lit, then glowed brighter with the extra voltage from the signal circuit), but the LED's take that extra voltage and just waste it as heat with no visual response in the lights.

I'm having to do a round-about way to cut power to the signals while the lights are turned on. If my plan doesn't work (may be some polarity issues, diodes being how they are) then I'll probably just put a 2nd set of lights. One set for blinkers, one set for runners. Maybe this helps, Worth what you paid for it anyway Shocked Very Happy
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 9:52 am    Post subject: Re: 75 Super with LED front turn signal wiring question Reply with quote

HeyWatchThis wrote:
So I have been drawing up a rewiring plan for my off-road rig with LEDs, and drawing up the circuits I ran into this problem-- Now I don't know if what I ran into is EXACTLY the same as what's happening to you because I don't know exactly what is in every stock beetle electrical component and haven't studied it, and don't exactly know what you've got going... Anyway...

I think the issue is this:

Traditional bulbs respond to more voltage. More voltage means it will be brighter.

Automotive LED's have voltage regulators on them and putting more voltage to it just means it's going to shed more power as heat prior to getting to the LED.

So while the lights are on, it may be the case that originally, more voltage was applied when you turned the turn signal switch on (Lights stayed lit, then glowed brighter with the extra voltage from the signal circuit), but the LED's take that extra voltage and just waste it as heat with no visual response in the lights.

I'm having to do a round-about way to cut power to the signals while the lights are turned on. If my plan doesn't work (may be some polarity issues, diodes being how they are) then I'll probably just put a 2nd set of lights. One set for blinkers, one set for runners. Maybe this helps, Worth what you paid for it anyway Shocked Very Happy


actually the signal/running light bulbs on top of front fenders are a duel element bulb. the voltage delievered does not change by design, what happens to make the light brighter for signal purposes is the second filiment is turned on. the second filement burns a bit brighter than the primary filiment, different wattage. but the voltage for both is the same.

the same function could have been made with two separate single filament bulbs per side, but that would have required more space for the additional bulb, and maybe a reflector redesign.
Many cars do use duel filiment bulbs, often combining turn signal or brake light with a running light. And of course our Bug headlamps are dual filament, high and low beam.

there LED equivelent bulbs for conversion from filiment bulbs with two filiments. the led dual types may have half the array of leds light up for low, and all them light up for high. you will find three terminals on a dual filament lamp, a common ground via the cylindrical lamp holder, and two terminals for positive power at bottom of the base, one for each filiment.

The one set of lights in a Bug that do dim via reduced voltage are the dash instrument illumination lights, they dim by voltage reduction via the dash light rheostat knob
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