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67ctbug
Samba Member
Joined: January 24, 2016
Posts: 3619
Location: CT
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 Posted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 2:28 pm Post subject: Wolfsburg Crest Copyright |
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Does anyone know if the Wolfsburg Crest is copyrighted or trademarked? I was thinking about making and selling shirts with them on it, but if I'm going get a cease and desist, I'm not even going to try.
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...or the PO envied the terrorists' bus in "Back to the Future".  |
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Mike Fisher
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Joined: January 30, 2006
Posts: 17969
Location: Eugene, OR
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| Posted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 5:08 pm Post subject: Re: Wolfsburg Crest Copyright |
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They are making & selling every different kind of custom T shirt on facebook, so I would not worry about it.
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67ctbug
Samba Member
Joined: January 24, 2016
Posts: 3619
Location: CT
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| Posted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 5:25 pm Post subject: Re: Wolfsburg Crest Copyright |
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Oh okay, we'll see what happens. When I put it in the designer, it said it might have been copyrighted, but I searched Wolfsburg in the German Copyright and trademark system and didn't see the crest. I hope it works...
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Go Cubs!
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| KentPS wrote: |
| ...or the PO envied the terrorists' bus in "Back to the Future". |
| mukluk wrote: |
| He's fine, just waiting for the dragon in winklepickers to move out of his lane. |
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Zundfolge1432 
Samba Member
Joined: June 13, 2004
Posts: 12466
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| Posted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 6:30 pm Post subject: Re: Wolfsburg Crest Copyright |
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| 67ctbug wrote: |
| Oh okay, we'll see what happens. When I put it in the designer, it said it might have been copyrighted, but I searched Wolfsburg in the German Copyright and trademark system and didn't see the crest. I hope it works... |
You should go to eBay and look at all the stuff coming out of china, do you think they worry about trademarks or copyrights? We are being flooded with stuff, no way can their lawyers keep up. The American consumers have no loyalty they shop price alone, many here in love with harbor freight but also wave the American flag and pretend to be patriotic. It’s a free for all, make your shirts and don’t look back.  |
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EverettB
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Joined: April 11, 2000
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Location: Phoenix Metro
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| Posted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:41 pm Post subject: Re: Wolfsburg Crest Copyright |
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I'm not aware of a copyright on that and I have seen other people reproducing it in the past.
I'm not sure how much VW cracks down at the moment either but I will say if you get any sort of email, ignore it. If it comes registered mail and you have to sign for it, then you might have a problem.
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67ctbug
Samba Member
Joined: January 24, 2016
Posts: 3619
Location: CT
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| Posted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:10 pm Post subject: Re: Wolfsburg Crest Copyright |
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Okay, sounds good. I'll click the "I have permission" button.
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'67 Beetle L41
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Go Cubs!
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| KentPS wrote: |
| ...or the PO envied the terrorists' bus in "Back to the Future". |
| mukluk wrote: |
| He's fine, just waiting for the dragon in winklepickers to move out of his lane. |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21510
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 11:08 pm Post subject: Re: Wolfsburg Crest Copyright |
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| Mike Fisher wrote: |
| They are making & selling every different kind of custom T shirt on facebook, so I would not worry about it. |
Yes...they are copyrighted. And....my business is screen printing.....of all types. I have been into right about 4000 shops and plants......and yes VW (especially) and Porsche....police this unceasingly.
Lots of small shit head shops get away with this type of theft on FB and ebay.... and many more get eaten alive.
Get permission.....period. If you printed one of my logos without permission or payment or royalty....if I couldn't sue you I would hunt you down and beat you with a pipe.
Don't be part of the problem. Ray |
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busman78
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Joined: August 17, 2004
Posts: 4520
Location: Oklahoma City, OK
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| Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 7:27 am Post subject: Re: Wolfsburg Crest Copyright |
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Took less than five minutes to find this, VW does not control the Wolfsburg logo, it is the flag and coat of arms for the city of Wolfsburg, this was copied over from the city information.
Wolfsburg and its coat of arms:
"Wolfsburg received its coat of arms along with its name, which is why the name of the city can be clearly seen on it: a wolf standing atop a castle.
The castle does not represent one building in particular; rather it is symbolic of the term “castle”, acting as a reminder of Wolfsburg Castle. The waves below the castle represent the Aller, the river that runs through Wolfsburg.
The coat of arms is a sign of sovereignty and may only be used on certain documents or materials after being granted approval from the City." |
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21510
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:31 am Post subject: Re: Wolfsburg Crest Copyright |
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| busman78 wrote: |
Took less than five minutes to find this, VW does not control the Wolfsburg logo, it is the flag and coat of arms for the city of Wolfsburg, this was copied over from the city information.
Wolfsburg and its coat of arms:
"Wolfsburg received its coat of arms along with its name, which is why the name of the city can be clearly seen on it: a wolf standing atop a castle.
The castle does not represent one building in particular; rather it is symbolic of the term “castle”, acting as a reminder of Wolfsburg Castle. The waves below the castle represent the Aller, the river that runs through Wolfsburg.
The coat of arms is a sign of sovereignty and may only be used on certain documents or materials after being granted approval from the City." |
You are correct....VW does not control the logo.....but by default of design and international copyright law....it is copyrighted.
But.....as with all country flags and most national crests....I do not think one single country has an issue so for sure it would be no problem to use and reproduce the Wolfsburg crest.
The thing people have to remember is that if someone (person, company, corporate entity)....designs a logo, graphic etc....for print or electronic publication and have dated documentation that they in fact designed it.....its copyrighted. They have the copyright. There is technically no need to apply for or file for copyrights.....although if you really plan to go after people who steal your work....and it is theft.....then you should file a copyright.
It is a VAST problem in the commercial printing and design industry.....and its not just logos.....and the Chinese aspect of copyrighted work theft.....is not actually the major part of it right now. It was in the near past.
Right now....the largest group of logo, rendering and copyrighted material theft is right here in North America.....mostly in the United states.
T-shirt and textile wise....with the huge explosion of cheap inkjet based vinyl and plastisol transfer printers and the advent of large and small internet sales houses (Custom ink, T-spring and Cafe press to name a few big ones).....literally thousands of private home businesses have sprung up that both feed the big houses mentioned and sell direct.
The nifty software on their sites.....can take a screen grab from anywhere in Google images...and in one second....display it on the garment of your choice with a person in it. No need for photoshop. There is specific software for just this printed garment display.
You order it.....they rip it right off the net.....anywhere...any site....copyright or not...and can havd it printed and out the door overnight. All manner of items from plastic items witj decals, nylons and polyester plastic items with sublimation.
There is also several large networks for poster, art photos and decal reprints....using a slew of fake named, online shell companies ripping off vast quantities of copyrighted work. This is also starting to creep into the low end of the printed electronics segment that I work in.
Most of the stolen work we are seeing...is NOT from China. Its from little greedy Americans working out of their homes. Ray |
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busman78
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Joined: August 17, 2004
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Location: Oklahoma City, OK
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| Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:37 am Post subject: Re: Wolfsburg Crest Copyright |
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The last line of what I copied over says it all,
The coat of arms is a sign of sovereignty and may only be used on certain documents or materials after being granted approval from the City |
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Zundfolge1432
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Joined: June 13, 2004
Posts: 12466
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| Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:46 am Post subject: Re: Wolfsburg Crest Copyright |
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Through the years I’ve seen people selling tee shirts at VW car shows and they came back year after year never got hassled by VW. Other vendors selling vinyl stickers, bumper stickers etc. again no problem the VW hitmen left them alone.
Several years ago I bought a nice shirt which had a large color photo of a 36hp engine, I love it. When I stop and think about it I have no qualms reproducing VW manuals or tech literature because they sure as hell don’t offer me any support unlike other German auto makers. VW you don’t scare me. |
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21510
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:51 am Post subject: Re: Wolfsburg Crest Copyright |
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| busman78 wrote: |
The last line of what I copied over says it all,
The coat of arms is a sign of sovereignty and may only be used on certain documents or materials after being granted approval from the City |
Yep....
I work with copyright laws as part of what I do for a living...and have been to court for issues with copyrights numerous times. The copyright laws as written are some of the worst explained.
The basic constituent "parts" (in this case...the wolf, the castle and the river design components) and the original design of the Wolsfburg crest...are technically public domain just like national flags.
But...within their country of origin...since its the intellectual property of the country or city of origin...as the line you listed states....they can...at least in their country....designate how and when its allowed to be used by law.
HOWEVER.... when a crest/flag/logo that is public domain...meaning anyone in the public can use it.....is then RE-STYLIZED OR RE-DESIGNED WITHIN A SPECIFIC VISUAL WAY....it becomes a copyrighted piece of intellectual property.
All of these exactly styled versions of the Wolfsburg crest....are the copyrighted intellectual property of Volkswagen
http://cartype.com/pages/3680/the_wolfsburg_crest
Check these out and be careful what you copy.
But even a semi-skilled person with PS or any vector program like illustrator....who is not just being a thieving hack....  ...can take one of the versions on that page and tweak it a little to be different from how VW tweaked them....and voila!...you are safe! Just document your work in case you start making and selling something and someone comes after you.
You need to be sure you can show how your logo version is different enough to not be theft.
I found reference to the original simple black and white Wolsfburg crest being designed by a person whose last name was Panik. I do not know is this an updated "tweaked" version or if this name is associated with the "original" design used by VW. However...if he was a VW employee even 85 years ago or so...it makes it VW property.
Also there have been so many versions just by VW....who could really know which one was a "real" VW design. Ray |
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67ctbug
Samba Member
Joined: January 24, 2016
Posts: 3619
Location: CT
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| Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:59 am Post subject: Re: Wolfsburg Crest Copyright |
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Well Ray, this is what I made... what do you think? How could I edit it?
https://teespring.com/shop/wolfsburg-crest?aid=mar...;sid=front
_________________
'67 Beetle L41
'74 Westfalia
'69 Plymouth "Adam-12"
'63 Ragtop
'73 914
'73 Dodge W200
'72 Dodge Wrecker
Go Cubs!
World Series Champions 2016
| KentPS wrote: |
| ...or the PO envied the terrorists' bus in "Back to the Future". |
| mukluk wrote: |
| He's fine, just waiting for the dragon in winklepickers to move out of his lane. |
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KTPhil
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Joined: April 06, 2006
Posts: 33991
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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| Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 12:05 pm Post subject: Re: Wolfsburg Crest Copyright |
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Yes, the "legal tweak" is much like the situation with fonts. The font NAME is copyrighted, but with even one pixel or line being changed, a nearly indistinguishable version can be legally sold.
As suggested, document how yours is different. I would get high resolution versions (say in PDF form) of the original and yours, overlaid to show that you changed some key dimension or the aspect ratio. It can be small enough it would escape the naked eye and not affect sales, but you have a case for being "different." |
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67ctbug
Samba Member
Joined: January 24, 2016
Posts: 3619
Location: CT
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| Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 12:48 pm Post subject: Re: Wolfsburg Crest Copyright |
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I didn't change the one on the shirt, but if I say, changed just the width by a pixel or two, would I be good? I did a little research and... this is the official coat of arms-
and here's mine-
Mine already looks pretty different so am I good?
_________________
'67 Beetle L41
'74 Westfalia
'69 Plymouth "Adam-12"
'63 Ragtop
'73 914
'73 Dodge W200
'72 Dodge Wrecker
Go Cubs!
World Series Champions 2016
| KentPS wrote: |
| ...or the PO envied the terrorists' bus in "Back to the Future". |
| mukluk wrote: |
| He's fine, just waiting for the dragon in winklepickers to move out of his lane. |
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67ctbug
Samba Member
Joined: January 24, 2016
Posts: 3619
Location: CT
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| Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:09 pm Post subject: Re: Wolfsburg Crest Copyright |
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Here's the comparison-
_________________
'67 Beetle L41
'74 Westfalia
'69 Plymouth "Adam-12"
'63 Ragtop
'73 914
'73 Dodge W200
'72 Dodge Wrecker
Go Cubs!
World Series Champions 2016
| KentPS wrote: |
| ...or the PO envied the terrorists' bus in "Back to the Future". |
| mukluk wrote: |
| He's fine, just waiting for the dragon in winklepickers to move out of his lane. |
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Gary
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Joined: November 01, 2002
Posts: 17069
Location: 127.0.0.1
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| Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 4:19 pm Post subject: Re: Wolfsburg Crest Copyright |
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| 67ctbug wrote: |
I didn't change the one on the shirt, but if I say, changed just the width by a pixel or two, would I be good? I did a little research and... this is the official coat of arms-
and here's mine-
Mine already looks pretty different so am I good? |
Just FYI: Practicing law in the US is illegal, and in this thread there are several people who are offering "legal advice" who do not possess a law licence.
That being said, you're soliciting legal advice from the wrong place. When in doubt, seek the advice of a professional rather than crossing your fingers and "hoping for the best".
| Zundfolge1432 wrote: |
| 67ctbug wrote: |
| Oh okay, we'll see what happens. When I put it in the designer, it said it might have been copyrighted, but I searched Wolfsburg in the German Copyright and trademark system and didn't see the crest. I hope it works... |
You should go to eBay and look at all the stuff coming out of china, do you think they worry about trademarks or copyrights? We are being flooded with stuff, no way can their lawyers keep up. The American consumers have no loyalty they shop price alone, many here in love with harbor freight but also wave the American flag and pretend to be patriotic. It’s a free for all, make your shirts and don’t look back. |
Just because there has been counterfeit products coming from China doesn't absolve another person of counterfeiting. There are agreements and treaties in place wherein members of the World Trade Organization (of which China is a member) will work to crack down on counterfeiting and honoring intellectual copyright protections. There are similar treaties in place with the US and EU/European countries.
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67ctbug
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Joined: January 24, 2016
Posts: 3619
Location: CT
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| Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 4:52 pm Post subject: Re: Wolfsburg Crest Copyright |
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| Gary wrote: |
| 67ctbug wrote: |
I didn't change the one on the shirt, but if I say, changed just the width by a pixel or two, would I be good? I did a little research and... this is the official coat of arms-
and here's mine-
Mine already looks pretty different so am I good? |
Just FYI: Practicing law in the US is illegal, and in this thread there are several people who are offering "legal advice" who do not possess a law licence.
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What do you mean practicing law is illegal? Ray said he works with copyright because he is a screen printer. He must know something about it...He's offering his advise from experience.
Maybe I'll add an extra water ripple and flip the dogs tail or something... add an extra square on the castle towers. Because mine is exact to VW's... which is different than the city's.
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'67 Beetle L41
'74 Westfalia
'69 Plymouth "Adam-12"
'63 Ragtop
'73 914
'73 Dodge W200
'72 Dodge Wrecker
Go Cubs!
World Series Champions 2016
| KentPS wrote: |
| ...or the PO envied the terrorists' bus in "Back to the Future". |
| mukluk wrote: |
| He's fine, just waiting for the dragon in winklepickers to move out of his lane. |
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TDCTDI
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Joined: August 31, 2013
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| Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 5:01 pm Post subject: Re: Wolfsburg Crest Copyright |
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I wil say, after seeing businesses fold up when VWoA, BMW, Mercedes, and the like send their legal teams through, I sure as hell wouldn't want to be the one to give them a reason to prove why they get paid the salaries that they do. Just the court costs would be more than you would hope to make off the merchandise.
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Zundfolge1432
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Joined: June 13, 2004
Posts: 12466
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| Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 5:09 pm Post subject: Re: Wolfsburg Crest Copyright |
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| You guys sound like a gaggle of old women at a quitting bee. |
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