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67ctbug
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 Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 7:15 pm Post subject: Re: Wolfsburg Crest Copyright |
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I suppose I'll just not sell them...
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| KentPS wrote: |
...or the PO envied the terrorists' bus in "Back to the Future".  |
| mukluk wrote: |
| He's fine, just waiting for the dragon in winklepickers to move out of his lane. |
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EverettB 
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| Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:08 pm Post subject: Re: Wolfsburg Crest Copyright |
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| Zundfolge1432 wrote: |
| Through the years I’ve seen people selling tee shirts at VW car shows and they came back year after year never got hassled by VW. Other vendors selling vinyl stickers, bumper stickers etc. again no problem the VW hitmen left them alone. |
At least 2 of them on the West Coast have been hassled in the past and some of them ceased to sell certain items online many years ago due to issues.
As far as I know these 2 sellers have not been approached in person at events in a very long time.
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Busstom
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| Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:40 pm Post subject: Re: Wolfsburg Crest Copyright |
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| EverettB wrote: |
| Zundfolge1432 wrote: |
| Through the years I’ve seen people selling tee shirts at VW car shows and they came back year after year never got hassled by VW. Other vendors selling vinyl stickers, bumper stickers etc. again no problem the VW hitmen left them alone. |
At least 2 of them on the West Coast have been hassled in the past and some of them ceased to sell certain items online many years ago due to issues.
As far as I know these 2 sellers have not been approached in person at events in a very long time. |
Yes, as some of those who have been around a while can attest, the sweep that blew through the scene forced Wolfgang International to omit the VW emblem from the front of the splittie that graced their ads, Strictly VW had to change his DBA to Strictly Foreign, and several others suffered similarly. Many moons ago at Kelley Park, a vendor or two were peddling really cool coffee mugs with various vintage imagery (speeding Beetles, Buses, etc.), and for some reason, I hoarded a sh*tload of them. So glad I did, cuz they got C&D'd too 
However, at the last Kelley Park, I bought several T-shirts with all kinds of Westfalia imagery on them, including "WESTFALIA," and I doubt those were licensed. Soooo.... |
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Q-Dog
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| Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 6:53 am Post subject: Re: Wolfsburg Crest Copyright |
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| 67ctbug wrote: |
| I suppose I'll just not sell them... |
Why not come up with your own original art and put it on a shirt? That seems to me to be a lot more honorable than stealing someone else's work.  Does honor and decency need to be ignored when there may be a dollar to be made?
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Zundfolge1432
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Joined: June 13, 2004
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| Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:56 am Post subject: Re: Wolfsburg Crest Copyright |
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Here’s an example which combines two different themes, VW and the Grateful Dead. As you can imagine it sold well especially to the bus people. I’ve seen it done on a tie dye shirt which also appeals to a broad range of consumers. The man that sold these used to sell five shirts for 20 bucks, he was mobbed every year. I’m not advocating ripping off corporate properties, just showing you and telling what I’ve seen. You think VW is bad try Disney or Coca Cola items. It’s never gonna stop, I remember how old Bob Hoover felt when his sermons got ripped off and were available at shows and one well known bus parts house.
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67ctbug
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Joined: January 24, 2016
Posts: 3624
Location: CT
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| Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 11:30 am Post subject: Re: Wolfsburg Crest Copyright |
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I have actually come up with a few my own shirt designs...
All of them are available here- https://teespring.com/stores/dubwerks-1
I just really like the Wolfsburg Crest, but I suppose I can make a few more original designs.
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| KentPS wrote: |
| ...or the PO envied the terrorists' bus in "Back to the Future". |
| mukluk wrote: |
| He's fine, just waiting for the dragon in winklepickers to move out of his lane. |
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raygreenwood
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| Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 11:50 am Post subject: Re: Wolfsburg Crest Copyright |
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Whats nice....is that there is no type in that logo.
I would make the arch in the castle slightly wider...maybe the side walls of the castle slighyly narrower. Thats probably enough to show that you did not just rip off a screen shot.
With Teespring....you yourself will not have any problems. Teespring is considered a pack of whores in my industry. Major lawsuits against them in the past 3 years for copyright infringement. If they print it for you...be happy and don't worry. Its on them. Ray |
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raygreenwood
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Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 11:54 am Post subject: Re: Wolfsburg Crest Copyright |
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| 67ctbug wrote: |
I didn't change the one on the shirt, but if I say, changed just the width by a pixel or two, would I be good? I did a little research and... this is the official coat of arms-
and here's mine-
Mine already looks pretty different so am I good? |
The offical crst.....you are allowed to print. Its public domain...technically.
The one on your shirt.....is a stylized version of that crest.....but was drawn/designed by either a VW graphic designer or one under contract to VW...so technically that "version" of it is VW's property.....copyrighted.
An no....changing just a "pixel"...does not cut it. Unless people have grown a Jean Luq piquard microscope "Borg" eye.....and you can see a pixel....its not enough to change the visible difference. Tweak a few lines.
Ray |
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raygreenwood
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| Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:12 pm Post subject: Re: Wolfsburg Crest Copyright |
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| Gary wrote: |
| 67ctbug wrote: |
I didn't change the one on the shirt, but if I say, changed just the width by a pixel or two, would I be good? I did a little research and... this is the official coat of arms-
and here's mine-
Mine already looks pretty different so am I good? |
Just FYI: Practicing law in the US is illegal, and in this thread there are several people who are offering "legal advice" who do not possess a law licence.
That being said, you're soliciting legal advice from the wrong place. When in doubt, seek the advice of a professional rather than crossing your fingers and "hoping for the best".
| Zundfolge1432 wrote: |
| 67ctbug wrote: |
| Oh okay, we'll see what happens. When I put it in the designer, it said it might have been copyrighted, but I searched Wolfsburg in the German Copyright and trademark system and didn't see the crest. I hope it works... |
You should go to eBay and look at all the stuff coming out of china, do you think they worry about trademarks or copyrights? We are being flooded with stuff, no way can their lawyers keep up. The American consumers have no loyalty they shop price alone, many here in love with harbor freight but also wave the American flag and pretend to be patriotic. It’s a free for all, make your shirts and don’t look back.  |
Just because there has been counterfeit products coming from China doesn't absolve another person of counterfeiting. There are agreements and treaties in place wherein members of the World Trade Organization (of which China is a member) will work to crack down on counterfeiting and honoring intellectual copyright protections. There are similar treaties in place with the US and EU/European countries. |
Actually....no one is practicing law here with regard to what we are speaking of.
In any of your degree studies...did you have courses dealing with functional best practices of copyright law?
I did.....in both of my degree studies. With my BA in graphic and product design....we spent extensive time studying when a graphic, color pattern or typography concept (and a concept by definition is a finished/developed idea).....constitutes borrowing from an original idea or finished design to the point where it either requires copyright permission or at minimum recognition of lineage.
Since not one designer in history....not one....whether its architectural design, industrial/engineering deaign, product design or graphic design.....was EVER born as what is considered a "black box" designer....meaning.....while sitting locked in a room with no visual, aural or verbal input from anywhere in the world....they can create useful and stylish designs........its understood that all designers actively and subconsiously collect and use inputs...visual, shape, color, scale, typographic etc.....to make every design they will ever make.
The object of training and study....is to make sure you understand how much you are allowed to borrow.
The question is what is the significance of what was borrowed and what percentage of the whole was borrowed.
The legal part.....that I am not in any way getting into here....is that both of the above...are decided in court...when and if you are challanged.
The object is to try hard not to borrow complete designs.
Also bear in mind....the risk of just borrowing "elements" of a design...which in themselves may be seperate copyrighted designs. You may not know this until you get zapped.
An example......the wolf in the Wolfsburg logo. Its exact form/shape.... may have been laid out and used in other adds or graphics/logos.....by the original designer of VWs version of the crest.
If you tweaked everything ahout the castle, the surrounding border and the water of the crest you plan to print....but carried the wolf over exactly.....and that wolf was a separately copyrighted graphic...... if VW wanted to come down on you and brought that up in court.....either your "I tweaked it" protection/defense could be shot down....or the judge may take the taft of looking at the logo as a collective whole....and get you totally or partially off the hook.
Bear in mind....even if you win....it can cost you a bundle in lawyers. Ray |
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
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| Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:28 pm Post subject: Re: Wolfsburg Crest Copyright |
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| Zundfolge1432 wrote: |
Here’s an example which combines two different themes, VW and the Grateful Dead. As you can imagine it sold well especially to the bus people. I’ve seen it done on a tie dye shirt which also appeals to a broad range of consumers. The man that sold these used to sell five shirts for 20 bucks, he was mobbed every year. I’m not advocating ripping off corporate properties, just showing you and telling what I’ve seen. You think VW is bad try Disney or Coca Cola items. It’s never gonna stop, I remember how old Bob Hoover felt when his sermons got ripped off and were available at shows and one well known bus parts house.
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This exact logo....I have literally seen a young entrepreneur with his own small shop....get lead out of his shop in cuffs over that logo....really!
That specific...domed 3D version of the VW logo....is relatively new....and still in use actively by VW and VWOA. That particular logo they come down on HARD whenever they can.
Its almost impossible for VWs people to do anything to a small vendor that is selling shirts at a show....because they cannot SEE you....unless they are there.
The guy I saw get caught....as well as everyone else I have seen caught since about 1998.....including a $300 million per year commercial printer I worked for.....got caught because they advertized the products they were printing with the VW logo....ONLINE.....or...in the case of the company I worked for....we were not even printing it. We were testing and breaking in a new digital printing system back in 2001....and the VW logo was one of hundreds that was provided in the test print software. But.....our publicist...took pictures of this test printing for action shots for our website showing our new capability.
VW's copyright hounds....are web trollers primarily. They pull up Google searches on their logo and hundreds of key words all day long. They find pictures on peoples websites of their logo....and then decide whether they want to go after them if they have no license.
Since we were a very large commercial printer (600 employees, offset web, sheetfed offset, flexo, screen, digital and packaging)....they saw an unlicensed logo on our website and actually sent a lawyer to our door with a cease and desist order.
You advertize enough ripped off VW logo'd products on your site....and they will come. Ray |
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67ctbug
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Joined: January 24, 2016
Posts: 3624
Location: CT
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| Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 4:58 pm Post subject: Re: Wolfsburg Crest Copyright |
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Yeah... I'll just not do it. I'm not dealing with a court.
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| KentPS wrote: |
| ...or the PO envied the terrorists' bus in "Back to the Future". |
| mukluk wrote: |
| He's fine, just waiting for the dragon in winklepickers to move out of his lane. |
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Mike Fisher
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| Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 5:55 pm Post subject: Re: Wolfsburg Crest Copyright |
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Don't let these Nervous Nelly's skeer you off on your Business ideas! You are not even planning to use VW on your shirts! I would put a small Wolfsburg on the pocket area & a big Wolfsburg on the back.
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hitest
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| Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:28 pm Post subject: Re: Wolfsburg Crest Copyright |
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Do it- make a few and move on. Make them spot on Crests though- I sure wouldn't want a cheapo dollar-store version of it. If you swept through with a limited run two things would happen: First you'll be in and out of legal radar range fast. And your T-shirts may just have a limited run, get 'em while you can appeal- just like a certain artisan around here does with pewter...
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67ctbug
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Joined: January 24, 2016
Posts: 3624
Location: CT
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| Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:42 pm Post subject: Re: Wolfsburg Crest Copyright |
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Yeah, but if I do a limited run, for say, 4 days... that cuts down on buyers. I doubt I w would sell any in that time. Here's my edited version...
Can you tell the differences, and if you can, would you still buy it?
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| KentPS wrote: |
| ...or the PO envied the terrorists' bus in "Back to the Future". |
| mukluk wrote: |
| He's fine, just waiting for the dragon in winklepickers to move out of his lane. |
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 11:09 pm Post subject: Re: Wolfsburg Crest Copyright |
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| 67ctbug wrote: |
Yeah, but if I do a limited run, for say, 4 days... that cuts down on buyers. I doubt I w would sell any in that time. Here's my edited version...
Can you tell the differences, and if you can, would you still buy it? |
Yep...I can tell tbe difference...but then again I have them next to each other and I am looking for it. You will be just fine I suspect. It looks good....and ks enough different that at the worst you would get a cease and desist letter from my experience...long before anyone dragged you into court.
As for the rest of you.....goading people on calling them "nervous nellies".... you have absolutely no f*cking idea what it can cost when you get popped for this.
This is not a ticket for a roach in your ashtray in Colorado. Its not stealing a T-shirt design from someone with $1500 in total sales last year.
Its a logo from a multi-billion dollar company with more lawyers than you have hairs on your ass. It can easily be six figures if they wanted to stick it to you.
This logo is not in everyday current use even on Wolfsburg editions.
Just make what you need...sell them in person and do not advertize them at all online. You will be fine. Ray |
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Tram
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| Posted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:11 am Post subject: Re: Wolfsburg Crest Copyright |
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| Gary wrote: |
| 67ctbug wrote: |
I didn't change the one on the shirt, but if I say, changed just the width by a pixel or two, would I be good? I did a little research and... this is the official coat of arms-
and here's mine-
Mine already looks pretty different so am I good? |
Just FYI: Practicing law in the US is illegal, and in this thread there are several people who are offering "legal advice" who do not possess a law licence.
That being said, you're soliciting legal advice from the wrong place. When in doubt, seek the advice of a professional rather than crossing your fingers and "hoping for the best".
| Zundfolge1432 wrote: |
| 67ctbug wrote: |
| Oh okay, we'll see what happens. When I put it in the designer, it said it might have been copyrighted, but I searched Wolfsburg in the German Copyright and trademark system and didn't see the crest. I hope it works... |
You should go to eBay and look at all the stuff coming out of china, do you think they worry about trademarks or copyrights? We are being flooded with stuff, no way can their lawyers keep up. The American consumers have no loyalty they shop price alone, many here in love with harbor freight but also wave the American flag and pretend to be patriotic. It’s a free for all, make your shirts and don’t look back. |
Just because there has been counterfeit products coming from China doesn't absolve another person of counterfeiting. There are agreements and treaties in place wherein members of the World Trade Organization (of which China is a member) will work to crack down on counterfeiting and honoring intellectual copyright protections. There are similar treaties in place with the US and EU/European countries. |
If only that were true.
Hint: Practicing law without a license may very well be illegal, but proofreading is not. In fact, I encourage it. Try it sometime.
PS: Hiya Gary 
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Zundfolge1432
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Joined: June 13, 2004
Posts: 12468
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| Posted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 7:59 am Post subject: Re: Wolfsburg Crest Copyright |
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| Meanwhile back at the ranch😀. I bet when I attend the shows this spring and summer I’ll see the tee shirt guys, sticker guys, hats, sippy cups, you name it shamelessly selling VW swag. The attendees will only be too happy to buy the stuff not caring where it’s from or who made it, life goes on. Take a deep breath click your heels together three times and say “There’s no place like home”. Hey what about the guys that get a VW tattoo are they gonna get their pee pee whacked too? 😀 bailiff whack his pee pee. |
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calvinater
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| Posted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 9:02 am Post subject: Re: Wolfsburg Crest Copyright |
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isn't it only copyright infringement if you profit from it? then it should be the tattoo artist who gets sued
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scottyrocks
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| Posted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:00 pm Post subject: Re: Wolfsburg Crest Copyright |
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| Zundfolge1432 wrote: |
Here’s an example which combines two different themes, VW and the Grateful Dead. As you can imagine it sold well especially to the bus people. I’ve seen it done on a tie dye shirt which also appeals to a broad range of consumers. The man that sold these used to sell five shirts for 20 bucks, he was mobbed every year. I’m not advocating ripping off corporate properties, just showing you and telling what I’ve seen. You think VW is bad try Disney or Coca Cola items. It’s never gonna stop, I remember how old Bob Hoover felt when his sermons got ripped off and were available at shows and one well known bus parts house.
|
With this one, you can have both VW and the Dead coming after you.
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raygreenwood
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| Posted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:18 pm Post subject: Re: Wolfsburg Crest Copyright |
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| Zundfolge1432 wrote: |
| Meanwhile back at the ranch😀. I bet when I attend the shows this spring and summer I’ll see the tee shirt guys, sticker guys, hats, sippy cups, you name it shamelessly selling VW swag. The attendees will only be too happy to buy the stuff not caring where it’s from or who made it, life goes on. Take a deep breath click your heels together three times and say “There’s no place like home”. Hey what about the guys that get a VW tattoo are they gonna get their pee pee whacked too? 😀 bailiff whack his pee pee. |
Yep!...but....even if VW's copyright hounds show up at a VW show...they really cannot hassle someone selling VW logo'd goods. They have to file and get a warrant to confiscate the goods. And....they would have to prove that YOU...the person selling them...printed them. Unless you are printing on the spot....you can simply say you bought them on line.
However...and I have literally seen this happen at other venues....like trade shows....an enterprising but stooopid small, hack business guy brings along his digital sublimation printer in the back of a truck...and starts printing unlicensed, logo'd copies of items on mugs, T-shirts, frisbees....and an agent from X company on site...simply contacts the Sheriffs office at the trade show center (virtually all trade show centers have a sheriffs office)....and boy gets busted, thrown off the floor and usually ends up in court. Lots of $ down the tubes.
Its the act of manufacturing unlicensed goods....or in the case of clothing store busts that we see in the news....selling goods that you know are counterfeit....that most of these copyright hounds are after. Its hard to do anything after the fact when someone shows up at a car show with a case of China printed T-shirts.
The agressive policing and confiscations have been done in the past...especially with for example to Super Bowl ring shirts.
One of my past screenprint back in the 90's customers used to have the exclusive NFL license to print a licensed batch of 30-50,000 specific image shirts for the Game. They were the only ones licensed to be sold on site and in participating NFL goods dealers. That was easily a $300k contract. They used to police aggressively at the stadium and trade shows.
No...you cannot get busted for a tattoo (at least so far). That is not a direct copy. It is "drawn" on or transferred with alcohol on transfer paper....so just like tweaking the logo in this thread....its tweaked once its applied. The skin makes it unique.
Once could "try" to go after a tattoo artist for taking a licensed logo from say...a magazine....and transferring that directly to the skin with an alcohol wash...to use as a template.....but the fact that it is then "inked" by hand...means that its not an exact reproduction...so its a rendering. Its now art....not mass reproduction for sale. Ray |
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