73 Standard - rust - can it be patched?

[daveavw]

I recently purchased a nice 73 standard. I am the third owner, and the car is mostly in good shape, unmolested and original. I don't think there is bondo anywhere and I can't see any signs of collision repair.

The pan looks (to my novice eye) to be in decent shape. However, there are a few areas that have significant rust-through. I am hoping I can get some tips on how to proceed. I am contemplating getting a small MIG welder, practicing a lot, then trying to cut and patch these rotted areas back together.

I'm adding a few photos of the areas in question. There is some rot in the front beam, so that will probably just get replaced with a rebuilt German one. The intent here is to create a solid daily (mostly fair weather) driver. That said, if investing a few extra dollars and some grunt work would produce a much better result (from a longevity/integrity standpoint vs. purely cosmetic), then that is preferable to me. I want to get a handle on the rust issues before getting too excited about other stuff.

Please let me know your thoughts. I can easily take more photos if needed to clarify anything.

Thanks!

[theKbStockpiler]

If the floors are 19-18 gauge they might be thick enough to clean up and leave in place. If there is a lot of deep pitting I would replace/patch that part. I like using Klean Strip phosphoric acid with lots of ventilation and while wearing goggles for that. I also keep a spray bottle next to me with water in it. If you keep up your safety habits it's not that bad.

Your welding ambitions sound good. Learning to weld ON a car is very bad. Unless you are doing decent looking work don't arc on the beetle until you have practiced more. There is enough threads on the Samba to learn to weld if you do a search. I have a bunch of threads on the subject.

Rust issues are generally 3 times worse than they appear before you make like an archeologist. It's not always a case of replacing the effected part but replacing the part the effected part is attached to as well.

Your heater channels need to be completely replaces obviously and your front wheel housing needs at least a patch panel.
_________________
My beetle is not competing with your beetle. I have the yellow beetle in my town. There is a red one, a green one ......
Use all safety devices including a mask.

[daveavw]

Thanks for the input. Do you think the entire heater channel should be replaced, or since the inner parts seem to only have superficial rust, would something like just this outer piece from mamotorworks suffice? Again, not trying to be cheap, but replacing the whole channel vs. just the outer rocker skin are kind of vastly different animals, right?

http://www.mamotorworks.com/VW/product/rocker-panel-wcarpet-mount-lh_314005

I appreciate the comments about welding. For sure won't be learning on the car. I have access to a small MIG flux-core setup at work, so will be playing with some scrap sheet metal and saving for a decent 110/220v with gas. I am also planning on taking a 1-on-1 class with a pro welder before touching the bug with a torch.

I will try some kind of acid wash on the interior pan to see better what is there, but it seems more solid than it looks (yes, I know it always does). That said, reminding me that I'm a clueless noob will always be taken as constructive criticism...

If there are any Denver area guru's who would be willing to take a look at it in person, I'd sure appreciate that, too.

Thanks again.

[67ctbug]

A MIG flux core is not a thing. Mig and flux core are not the same... don't use flux core on your new panels...please. The new panels will start burning holes and you'll spend more time making it look nice with flux core then you would if you just got something like an Eastwood mig and use that. This is a flux core weld in low heat on a new panel that I cut to do some testing...

_________________
'67 Beetle L41
'74 Westfalia
'69 Plymouth "Adam-12"
'63 Ragtop
'73 914
'72 Dodge Wrecker
Go Cubs!
World Series Champions 2016

[daveavw]

Yeah, the work machine is a Millermatic 135 XP unit that is currently set up for flux core (FCAW) only, but it is capable of GMAW *if* it was properly equipped with gas (and polarity was set correctly). The idea was to use it just to sort of "get a feel" for it, not for the actual work. Like I said, I am planning on getting a MIG setup when funds permit. But after seeing your photo, I kinda wonder if it's worth even screwing around with the 135 XP seeing as how it can only do flux core as it stands. I truly appreciate your help in keeping me from screwing up, and thanks for the photo! Again, I won't be welding on the car until I am confident that I produce results that I'm happy with. Even then, I will try to enlist somebody with experience to at least mentor me.

[theKbStockpiler]

Flux core is about 70% of what MIG is but I would use 19 gauge and thicker for practice. One of the biggest issues with flux is that the flux burns off and makes a HAZE which is hard to see through. Slight help from a fan will help with this. Flux is also bad to breath.

You should be able to practice;
-Getting the machine set up and adjusting voltage and wire speed
-creating a good arc
-Making a weld pool
-Keeping your stickout as short as possible.
-Moving or pulling the weld pool along
-Burning through; This should be easy with flux because you can't stay in any place too long with a continual arc.
-Not burning through while laying a seam. With flux on thin metal the bead will have to be very narrow with a continuous bead without burning through.
_________________
My beetle is not competing with your beetle. I have the yellow beetle in my town. There is a red one, a green one ......
Use all safety devices including a mask.

[theKbStockpiler]

As far as your heater channel I'm not an expert on that. Some Heater Channels have the Rocker Panel and Running Board Panel as one piece while others are three separate pieces.

I guess I would remove the rug from the door threshold and see if I could find any spot welds there or not.
_________________
My beetle is not competing with your beetle. I have the yellow beetle in my town. There is a red one, a green one ......
Use all safety devices including a mask.

[daveavw]

I can't see any spot welds and it looks like the inner duct is right against the outer skin at the top, so it seems like it would be difficult to cut off just the outer skin there. But along the area where the door seal meets it, couldn't I maybe just cut it there and butt weld in either a patch from a replacement or fabricate a patch? I know that's not trivial, but better than replacing the whole channel. The only part that appears badly rusted is the skin where the running board mounts. I do plan on doing more of an autopsy before committing, but even before that I appreciate what advice you offer!

[theKbStockpiler]

I have heater channel work coming up on my own car so I took a good look at them.

They are seamless from the bottom plate on over to the other side of the bottom plate. The rug clip is spot welded on. There is sort of a inside piece that continues the part that the door edge stops on and goes straight down to cut the heater channel to 2/3rds of the perceived size from the outside. The running board anchors do not have a separate panel.
_________________
My beetle is not competing with your beetle. I have the yellow beetle in my town. There is a red one, a green one ......
Use all safety devices including a mask.

[theKbStockpiler]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and assume that a heater channels come as a complete one piece unit (heater channel top ,bottom plate and a way to attach the running boards. And the individual pieces like (rocker panel, running board panel) are for if you want to do patches.
. I gravitate towards MillSupply and Cip but there are lots of others,MOFOCO,Aircooled.net,Chucks Convertible Parts, Kustom Warehouse, etc etc etc. There are threads on the samba on panel manufactures. Some of the pictures of heater channels look like the panel has crumpled areas near bends where as mine are very smooth. The thickness can very as well.There's a few European makers ,Taiwanese etc, etc, etc.
_________________
My beetle is not competing with your beetle. I have the yellow beetle in my town. There is a red one, a green one ......
Use all safety devices including a mask.

[daveavw]

I've been reading a lot of threads here about heater channel replacement and every one of them has had considerably more rot than mine. I really do believe it's a reasonable plan to patch mine vs. a complete replacement, but I will try to take it to an expert for a second opinion before going much further. If anybody else feels like chiming it, though, I'd appreciate hearing your opinions. It will be a while before the piggy bank can support buying the necessary tools, but meanwhile the car enjoys living in a dry garage, so no rush.

As for channels, the CIP1 Dansk ones seem good. It looks like some of the CIP1 repair panels are Klokkerholm, which might be good, too. I suppose it's not out of the question to (try to) find a donor car.

[67ctbug]

[theKbStockpiler]

If the patch panel covers all of the effected area and the rest of the heater channel is good I would patch it. From the apparent condition of your car, I would not bother with taking the body off.
_________________
My beetle is not competing with your beetle. I have the yellow beetle in my town. There is a red one, a green one ......
Use all safety devices including a mask.

[daveavw]

Decided to go with new heater channels, which I really think is the right call. I picked up a pair of Dansk channels from CIP1 - they seem well made. This will be a slow project as I am going to do a fair amount of work on the chassis, too, as funds allow... (oh yeah, and then there's the engine that could use some love... )

[Danpa]

Don't forget to brace the lower door openings before you make 1 cut to remove the heater channels.
When I did mine I made up braces that spanned from the lower seat belt mount behind the door to the inside of the door hinge area. (just above where the wiring comes out, and runs along side the floor pan.)

I made them from 2 BIG turnbuckles. Removed the right hand threaded side and replaced it with a long piece of all thread with a piece of short L-bracket welded to the end.
Welded that to the front and ran a bolt through the other end to the seat belt mount hole.
Tightened up the turnbuckle before I cut and the body didn't sag at all.

The good thing about the turnbuckle is, after you cut out the heater channel, you can remount the door, adjust it for fit, and check that adjustment as you weld in the new channel.

Dan
_________________
67 Beetle (gone)
68 Bay Window Double Cab (gone) sob, sob!
64 Beetle (gone)
77 Scirocco (gone)
73 Squareback (scrapped)
70 Beetle (current, in pieces)

[daveavw]

Thanks, Dan!

I am planning on bracing the door openings before cutting out the old channels, but I was thinking about either using the pre-fabbed braces from bugstuff or building my own to go between the hinge holes and the striker plate holes. The problem I see with that (and hopefully somebody will chime in) is that you can't put the doors on with that type of brace in place, so you'd need to tack weld in the channel, remove the brace, put the door on to check alignment, and if it was off you'd have to rinse and repeat. Sigh. I was trying to avoid welding (or drilling) to the door pillar, but it sounds like maybe that's a better plan.

Thoughts?

Dave

[Danpa]

I think I might have some pictures on my computer that I can post if you would like.
Those turnbuckles worked so well, I had the bare body supported by the bumper mounts on sawhorses the whole time.
When you do start to weld in the channels, weld at the door opening corners first, then you can tweak in the door opening with a jack at the channel ends for a nice even gap all around the door.

Dan
_________________
67 Beetle (gone)
68 Bay Window Double Cab (gone) sob, sob!
64 Beetle (gone)
77 Scirocco (gone)
73 Squareback (scrapped)
70 Beetle (current, in pieces)

[daveavw]

I think I'm going to try the bugstuff-style braces that bolt into the door hinge and striker holes. Maybe something across from door to door, too. I think that will keep things from flexing pretty well. I do like the turnbuckles as far as being able to adjust, though, so I won't rule out going that way.

I get what you're saying about welding around the pillars and using a strategically-placed floor jack to tweak the door gap/alignment. The Bug-me video shows that, too.

Thank you for all your tips and advice. It may be a month or two before I really get going on this. The bulkhead/front cross panel is rusted out on the right side where it attaches to the nap hat, so that needs some work, too. The rest of the bulkhead is pretty solid, so I'm going to try to patch it. The nap hat seems fine.

[dirtkeeper]

[daveavw]

What I like about the bugstuff-style door braces is that they form a triangle between the door posts which in my opinion offers superior structural rigidity to a single beam across the door opening. If the tubing is of a good size and wall thickness, I don't think the body would be able to move much, if at all. The hope would be that the doors should just line up since the body wasn't allowed to move. Leaning towards making one, since I could use a little welding and fabrication practice anyway.

In other news...fwiw, the body/pan seal on this car was one of the gooey mastic types, not a rubber seal. What a PITA... I haven't yet found a solvent that removes that stuff.