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SCM
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Joined: January 26, 2011
Posts: 3118
Location: Bozeman MT
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 Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 3:27 pm Post subject: Re: Nitrogen tire fill |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| They also test tires with straight air (21% O2, 78% N2, 1% other) in them, so testing tires with 44% oxygen and testing unmounted tires just adds additional data points. |
Geeze, they don't make that easy find in the executive summary or elsewhere in the text but I do see it in Figures 3 and 4.
I wish they would have taken a stab at scaling their artificial aging process to real time though. IOW, are we talking about a nitrogen filled tire lasting 50 years vs 20 for a non-nitrogen filled or something that's more in the realm of how long one would use a tire before the tread wears out?
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Wildthings
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Joined: March 13, 2005
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| Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 7:01 pm Post subject: Re: Nitrogen tire fill |
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| SCM wrote: |
| Wildthings wrote: |
| They also test tires with straight air (21% O2, 78% N2, 1% other) in them, so testing tires with 44% oxygen and testing unmounted tires just adds additional data points. |
Geeze, they don't make that easy find in the executive summary or elsewhere in the text but I do see it in Figures 3 and 4.
I wish they would have taken a stab at scaling their artificial aging process to real time though. IOW, are we talking about a nitrogen filled tire lasting 50 years vs 20 for a non-nitrogen filled or something that's more in the realm of how long one would use a tire before the tread wears out? |
I would hope that such a real world test is in progress. For owners of classic cars, it would be nice to get the life up to a dozen or even 15 years as the annual mileage is pretty low for many of us and I can pretty much guaranty you a lot of the people with classic cars are running with tires ten years or more old.
It would actually be really easy to come up with a test for this, maybe 20 rigs with each tire on each rig filled with a different percentage of N2 (like 78%, 85%, 90%, & 95%), plus a spare that wouldn't be run except in emergencies. I wouldn't want to run a tire with less nitrogen than 78% though as I think you would be asking for trouble to do so. Just rotate the tires as recommend by the manufacture and then either when the tread is worn out or at some date like 6, 8, or 10 years, do destructive testing on the tires. |
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Merian
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| Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 7:22 pm Post subject: Re: Nitrogen tire fill |
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not possible
the tread gets hard after 6-7 years, rendering the car unsafe
unless you plan to rub nitrogen on the tread every hour... 
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vwwestyman
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E1
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Joined: January 21, 2013
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Location: Westfalia, Earth
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| Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 8:00 pm Post subject: Re: Nitrogen tire fill |
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It seems clear the rationale behind this thread is to explore whether or not there's any benefits to be gained -- from a safety standpoint -- in having nitrogen as a tire-life extender.
Of all the cars on the road, our vehicles seem particularly supceptible to infrequent use, meaning some might use tires with great tread left after several years strictly for lack of miles driven.
If anyone reading were to avoid a blowout like the above for getting any more safe years or miles before a blowout, then this information seems pretty important. Some of us are interested.
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Aryana
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Joined: November 09, 2015
Posts: 568
Location: Southern CA
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| Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 8:14 pm Post subject: Re: Nitrogen tire fill |
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| 100% Nitorgen in a tire is the answer to a question nobody asked. |
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Wildthings
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Joined: March 13, 2005
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| Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 1:42 am Post subject: Re: Nitrogen tire fill |
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| Merian wrote: |
not possible
the tread gets hard after 6-7 years, rendering the car unsafe
unless you plan to rub nitrogen on the tread every hour... |
You know the tires on my 3/4 ton will turn 16 this year. The rubber is still amazingly flexible, slight crazing of the sidewalls with no serious cracks to be seen in the sidewalls or tread, owned tires that looked worse after three years of service. Load range E tires, but usually they only carry 40-45 psi as the truck seldom carries much of a load and only very seldom does it get driven over 60 miles per hour or goes more than 10 miles at a stretch. I would certainly feel better if they had been filled with nitrogen from day 1. Guaranty that a lot of people in the woods of Oregon have tires a lot older and uglier and the earth hasn't opened up and swallowed them yet. |
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djkeev
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Butcher
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| Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 8:39 am Post subject: Re: Nitrogen tire fill |
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| vwwestyman wrote: |
| Maybe one could build nitrogen squirters to spray nitrogen on the tires as you drive. |
My system is already built and on all the cars I own. Sadly it's only 78% nitrogen but I'm working on that.
The proponents that push Nitrogen are the same proponents that will financially gain from it. Follow the money. Is it worth it? Probably not for the average person. For a race car? Marginal gains so why not. Long haul trucking? Maybe, I'm not a trucker.
My tires wear from the outside in, so how is that going to work for me? If your tires wear from the inside out, maybe it's for you. |
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vwwestyman
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| Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 8:45 am Post subject: Re: Nitrogen tire fill |
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| Butcher wrote: |
| vwwestyman wrote: |
| Maybe one could build nitrogen squirters to spray nitrogen on the tires as you drive. |
My system is already built and on all the cars I own. Sadly it's only 78% nitrogen but I'm working on that.
The proponents that push Nitrogen are the same proponents that will financially gain from it. Follow the money. Is it worth it? Probably not for the average person. For a race car? Marginal gains so why not. Long haul trucking? Maybe, I'm not a trucker.
My tires wear from the outside in, so how is that going to work for me? If your tires wear from the inside out, maybe it's for you. |
Ha ha, nice! Maybe we should advertise the system and become rich! I feel like there are probably some dummies who would spend money on some kind of ducts or flaps that cause more air to blow at the tires if marketed correctly.
Would be along the lines of the tornado thing that you're supposed to put in your intake or anything of that nature.
I'm with you on whether it is really worth it. If the tire shop I used asked if I wanted it, and it was not an additional cost then why not? But beyond that I don't need it.
This seems like a thing where technically speaking, yes the nitrogen does keep the inside of the tire from degrading as quickly. But with a practical application, it just doesn't matter all that much.
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Wildthings
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| Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 8:51 am Post subject: Re: Nitrogen tire fill |
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| djkeev wrote: |
So......... if "normal" air is 78% Nitrogen and 21% oxygen ......
And
If the oxygen molecules are smaller and migrate out through the rubber.....
And
Over 10-12 years of topping off lost air.......
Isn't the remaining gas in your tire largely Nitrogen?
Do the math.......
If you lose 1% of the total volume and that 1% is largely oxygen.
You add back 1% but 78% of the 1% is Nitrogen
And you do this once a month for 10 years...... what is your total volume of oxygen left in the tire?
Or ....... if train "A" leaves New York and travels West at 60 miles an hour and train "B" leaves Los Angeles traveling East at 48 miles an hour how long will it be before they meet?
Dave |
When you first fill the tire with air it will begin the degradation of the tire. This degradation will not be repaired because later the amount of oxygen in the tire is depleted. I was kind of amazed when these particular tires got to 8'ish years old that they didn't seem to be showing their age and have checked them pretty carefully several times a year since looking for signs of delamination and serious cracking. The tires still hold air well, which is supposedly a good sign. I do believe that for lightly used rigs that nitrogen could be very helpful in keeping one's tires safe. The Pacific Northwest probably has the best air in the country (at least for the 48 contiguous states) so rubber, steel, plastic, etc suffer less degradation, the rig is usually parked in the shade, and the summer temps in the PNW tend to be moderate, all of which help. I can't remember the tire brand off hand, but will certainly be looking for the same brand whenever I do decide to replace them and hopefully the rubber formulation will still be as good. The tires are actually slightly lighter in color than a typical tire, don't have a clue as to what that means.
Tires don't have to be old to fail anyway.
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danfromsyr
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Joined: March 01, 2004
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Location: Syracuse, NY
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| Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 9:15 am Post subject: Re: Nitrogen tire fill |
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if you only drive at night, is UV still a factor? 
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| Abscate wrote: |
| These are the reasons we have words like wanker |
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Aryana
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Joined: November 09, 2015
Posts: 568
Location: Southern CA
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| Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 9:19 am Post subject: Re: Nitrogen tire fill |
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| djkeev wrote: |
So......... if "normal" air is 78% Nitrogen and 21% oxygen ......
And
If the oxygen molecules are smaller and migrate out through the rubber.....
And
Over 10-12 years of topping off lost air.......
Isn't the remaining gas in your tire largely Nitrogen?
Do the math.......
If you lose 1% of the total volume and that 1% is largely oxygen.
You add back 1% but 78% of the 1% is Nitrogen
And you do this once a month for 10 years...... what is your total volume of oxygen left in the tire?
Or ....... if train "A" leaves New York and travels West at 60 miles an hour and train "B" leaves Los Angeles traveling East at 48 miles an hour how long will it be before they meet?
Dave |
Yes. Over time, the % of nitrogen will be higher each time you top off the air. |
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Sodo
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| Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 9:55 am Post subject: Re: Nitrogen tire fill |
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| vwwestyman wrote: |
| Maybe one could build nitrogen squirters to spray nitrogen on the tires as you drive. |
Filter the nitrogen and add electronic temperature control.
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Tom Powell
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| Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 10:14 am Post subject: Re: Nitrogen tire fill |
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This question has not been answered yet.
| Tom Powell wrote: |
... Do tires age faster on alloy rims than on steel rims?  ... |
Aloha
tp |
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E1
Samba Member
Joined: January 21, 2013
Posts: 6559
Location: Westfalia, Earth
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| Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 10:17 am Post subject: Re: Nitrogen tire fill |
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An old friend and pinstriping client is a top restorer of '30s concours cars.
I have a call in to ask if he fills his restored car tires with nitrogen, as his are often million-dollar cars and they're dead-perfect candidates for using it.
Stock up with popcorn, tell the Missus you're on the case, and try not to perish from the anticipation...
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84 Westy, 2.1L with Digijet, 5.43 R+P, GT Gears
"Adding power makes you faster on the straights.
Subtracting weight makes you faster everywhere."
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Abscate
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| Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 11:04 am Post subject: Re: Nitrogen tire fill |
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The difference in the rate of effusion, which is PROP to SQRT(ratio of Molecular weights) is so small compared to the leak rate through defects, rims, valves, edges I will wager that the composition of air filled tires matches atmospheric composition within experimental accuracy.
WT - whats wrong with that tire? Plenty of tread...
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E1
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| Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 11:11 am Post subject: Re: Nitrogen tire fill |
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Can you interpret that for webless wonders such as I? 
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84 Westy, 2.1L with Digijet, 5.43 R+P, GT Gears
"Adding power makes you faster on the straights.
Subtracting weight makes you faster everywhere."
Colin Chapman |
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E1
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Location: Westfalia, Earth
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| Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 11:15 am Post subject: Re: Nitrogen tire fill |
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A patch will take care of that in a jiffy.
Serially, WHOA!!!! That'll affect handling fee sher.
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84 Westy, 2.1L with Digijet, 5.43 R+P, GT Gears
"Adding power makes you faster on the straights.
Subtracting weight makes you faster everywhere."
Colin Chapman |
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E1
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Joined: January 21, 2013
Posts: 6559
Location: Westfalia, Earth
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| Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 1:47 pm Post subject: Re: Nitrogen tire fill |
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| E1 wrote: |
An old friend and pinstriping client is a top restorer of '30s concours cars.
I have a call in to ask if he fills his restored car tires with nitrogen... |
Well, verdict's in.
Old cars still use tubed tires.
The End
Signed,
Notvery H. Elpful
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84 Westy, 2.1L with Digijet, 5.43 R+P, GT Gears
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Subtracting weight makes you faster everywhere."
Colin Chapman |
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