| Author |
Message |
kevlarian
Samba Member
Joined: October 16, 2014
Posts: 636
Location: Orange County, CA
|
 Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 4:41 pm Post subject: Decisions on Engine Size |
 |
|
As I look to purchase a 0 mile long block, I'm struck by the fact that the difference between a 1600 DP and a 1915 is essentially $100.
Why would I choose a 1600 (or 1776) over a 1915?
What is the advantage of going small CC when I can get 300cc for $100 more? |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
pondervwmike
Samba Member
Joined: June 16, 2017
Posts: 373
Location: Ponder(Dallas) Texas USA
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 5:05 pm Post subject: Re: Decisions on Engine Size |
|
|
It all has to do with what you want to do with the car and what you have to put on the longblock to make it work right. What kind of car do you have? What are your goals for this engine?
_________________
1967 Cal Look Beetle Street Car in re-restoration,customization. Mom and Dad bought it in 1983 when I was 4.
2010 VW Tiguan
2000 BMW 528i
1997 Jeep Cherokee
2127cc build thread https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=681556&highlight= |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
UK Luke 72
Samba Member
Joined: September 07, 2011
Posts: 2867
Location: Little Britain
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ach60 
Samba Member
Joined: May 14, 2001
Posts: 4139
Location: Santa Maria
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 5:15 pm Post subject: Re: Decisions on Engine Size |
|
|
Conventional wisdom is that the cylinder thickness used on a set of 94 mm Pistons & Cylinders is too thin and will lead to cylinder warpage and blow by.
90.5 mm Pistons & Cylinders which is used on 1776, the cylinder thickness is considered good, so 90.5 are considered reliable.
92 mm Pistons & Cylinders which is used on 1835 , was the hot set up years ago, but the Cylinders could be too thin and would lead to cylinder warpage and blow by, so 1776 became the hot set up.
Now they have 92 mm Pistons & Thick wall Cylinders which when used with 1835 makes the 1835 just as reliable as 1776.
There was also Machine in 88 mm Pistons & Cylinders which was considered as rock solid reliable as Stock 85.5 Pistons & Cylinders
85.5, 88, 90.5 and 92 Thick Wall are as only reliable as the guy putting the engine together, and the guy installing and tuning the engine(YOU).
GEX will send you a long block that will crap & leak and be a PITA/POS no matter how well you assemble the tin, install and tune it.
You buy from a reputable rebuilder, and then you do a sloppy job installing tin, installing the engine, and tuning it, than you get the PITA/POS you deserve,
But a 1600 (85.5 Pistons & Cylinders), may put up with sloppy job installing tin, installing the engine, tuning, better than an 1835.
Inexperience sometimes leads to sloppy.
_________________
Good Luck
Al |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Pruneman99
Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2012
Posts: 5013
Location: Oceanside
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 5:25 pm Post subject: Re: Decisions on Engine Size |
|
|
| kevlarian wrote: |
As I look to purchase a 0 mile long block, I'm struck by the fact that the difference between a 1600 DP and a 1915 is essentially $100.
Why would I choose a 1600 (or 1776) over a 1915?
What is the advantage of going small CC when I can get 300cc for $100 more? |
$100 price tag difference seems a bit suspect due to the costs involved putting a 1915 together. With more CC's you want a counterweighted crank, bigger cam, heads, exhaust, and more carb(s).
If the 1915 was put together with stock heads, stock crank and cam using the stock induction and exhaust, what's the point? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kevlarian
Samba Member
Joined: October 16, 2014
Posts: 636
Location: Orange County, CA
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 5:30 pm Post subject: Re: Decisions on Engine Size |
|
|
Ya, more details...
I purchased my car almost 4 years ago. It came with a "rebuilt" 1915, no documentation, so I can't tell you the build details. It runs great. Is solid, and has no real issues. I like it...
However... it's LOUD. LOUDER than any bug I've seen. This was the first engine I've owned larger than 1600 so I just thought... big = loud. Then I started taking it to shows; and meet ups... and started wondering why all the cars around me were so much quieter.
Well today, I went to Peirside and talked to the guys (and ran my motor) and they all agree'd something isn't right. It runs great. Fast as hell, but I got to get the noise resolved. The guys at the shop commented that is kinds sounds like a cement mixer. It's just weird. I can't figure it out...
SO I've got Dual Kadrons, CB Distributor, Doghouse cooler/fan shroud, BugPack merged header and matching Dual Quiet pack exhaust. I've got a full flow setup with external oil cooler with fan. Ive got a relatively new alternator.
So overall I think I have good parts and don't need to spend the money on a Ready-to-run setup... and honestly, I'd love to keep my motor, but I just don't know what it will take to get it QUIET... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kevlarian
Samba Member
Joined: October 16, 2014
Posts: 636
Location: Orange County, CA
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 5:31 pm Post subject: Re: Decisions on Engine Size |
|
|
| Pruneman99 wrote: |
| kevlarian wrote: |
As I look to purchase a 0 mile long block, I'm struck by the fact that the difference between a 1600 DP and a 1915 is essentially $100.
Why would I choose a 1600 (or 1776) over a 1915?
What is the advantage of going small CC when I can get 300cc for $100 more? |
$100 price tag difference seems a bit suspect due to the costs involved putting a 1915 together. With more CC's you want a counterweighted crank, bigger cam, heads, exhaust, and more carb(s).
If the 1915 was put together with stock heads, stock crank and cam using the stock induction and exhaust, what's the point? |
Going off this...
http://www.scatvw.com/long-block-engine/ |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Pruneman99
Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2012
Posts: 5013
Location: Oceanside
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 5:41 pm Post subject: Re: Decisions on Engine Size |
|
|
| Funny when you click details, there aren't any. I'd call to see what the difference is regarding cam, crank, and heads. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Danwvw
Samba Member
Joined: July 31, 2012
Posts: 8892
Location: Oregon Coast
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 6:02 pm Post subject: Re: Decisions on Engine Size |
|
|
surprised to see them that close. But they are both stocks crankshafts only difference is the case is opened an It gets a different set of piston and cylinders. Heads opened too. It's all Machine work cost.
The 92 Bore would be nice with a stroker CW Balanced crank. You can do one yourself for about that cost with 92Thickwalls a better crank and H rods. What is it going in and how fast do you want it? What carbs were you wanting?
_________________
1960 Beetle And 1679cc DP W-100 & Dual Zeniths! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kevlarian
Samba Member
Joined: October 16, 2014
Posts: 636
Location: Orange County, CA
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 7:29 pm Post subject: Re: Decisions on Engine Size |
|
|
| Danwvw wrote: |
surprised to see them that close. But they are both stocks crankshafts only difference is the case is opened an It gets a different set of piston and cylinders. Heads opened too. It's all Machine work cost.
The 92 Bore would be nice with a stroker CW Balanced crank. You can do one yourself for about that cost with 92Thickwalls a better crank and H rods. What is it going in and how fast do you want it? What carbs were you wanting? |
I've got dual Kadrons and a merged bugpack exhaust with dual.quiet packs. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Danwvw
Samba Member
Joined: July 31, 2012
Posts: 8892
Location: Oregon Coast
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kevlarian
Samba Member
Joined: October 16, 2014
Posts: 636
Location: Orange County, CA
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 9:19 pm Post subject: Re: Decisions on Engine Size |
|
|
| Danwvw wrote: |
| 40mm Kadrons? |
Yup. Currently on my 1915 and working AWESOME! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kevlarian
Samba Member
Joined: October 16, 2014
Posts: 636
Location: Orange County, CA
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 9:20 pm Post subject: Re: Decisions on Engine Size |
|
|
| kevlarian wrote: |
| Danwvw wrote: |
surprised to see them that close. But they are both stocks crankshafts only difference is the case is opened an It gets a different set of piston and cylinders. Heads opened too. It's all Machine work cost.
The 92 Bore would be nice with a stroker CW Balanced crank. You can do one yourself for about that cost with 92Thickwalls a better crank and H rods. What is it going in and how fast do you want it? What carbs were you wanting? |
I've got dual Kadrons and a merged bugpack exhaust with dual.quiet packs. |
I use this for a daily. I don't race. I just cruise on the freeway. Here in socal, I need to cruise @ 65 all day... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Danwvw
Samba Member
Joined: July 31, 2012
Posts: 8892
Location: Oregon Coast
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 9:26 pm Post subject: Re: Decisions on Engine Size |
|
|
Looks like the long block price kind of does defeat the reason for a smaller engine. I think the smaller engines are good in a bug. They are good if you're doing your own work as machine work is expensive. They are good if you have an old case like an H Case or even a 10mm stud AE case you don't want to open up.
With those carbs, though you could run the 94's with a good 8mm case opened for them.
_________________
1960 Beetle And 1679cc DP W-100 & Dual Zeniths! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kevlarian
Samba Member
Joined: October 16, 2014
Posts: 636
Location: Orange County, CA
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 9:36 pm Post subject: Re: Decisions on Engine Size |
|
|
| Danwvw wrote: |
Looks like the long block price kind of does defeat the reason for a smaller engine. I think the smaller engines are good in a bug. They are good if you're doing your own work as machine work is expensive. They are good if you have an old case like an H Case or even a 10mm stud AE case you don't want to open up.
With those carbs, though you could run the 94's with a good 8mm case opened for them. |
Ya I love my Kadrons. Like I said. I love my motor. It is rock solid... it just sounds like it has solid rocks IN it. LOL.
All everyone says, you gotta crack the case to figure out what is up... maybe that is all I need to do... I hate spending $3k for a motor when mine can be fixed... just seems like I'm throwing away my motor for no good reason. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
vwracerdave
Samba Member
Joined: November 11, 2004
Posts: 15309
Location: Deep in the 405
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 9:50 pm Post subject: Re: Decisions on Engine Size |
|
|
Do you have dual valve springs or single?
Do you have Chromoly push rods or Aluminum?
Do you have straight cut cam gears or stock helical cut gear?
Do you have the insulation tarboard in your engine compartment?
If I were building an engine with dual kads it would not be any larger than a 1776cc.
_________________
2017 Street Comp Champion - Thunder Valley Raceway Park - Noble, OK
2010 Sportsman ET Champion - Mid-America Dragway - Arkansas City, KS
1997 Sportsman ET Champion - Thunder Valley Raceway Park - Noble ,OK |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kevlarian
Samba Member
Joined: October 16, 2014
Posts: 636
Location: Orange County, CA
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 10:20 pm Post subject: Re: Decisions on Engine Size |
|
|
| vwracerdave wrote: |
Do you have dual valve springs or single?
Do you have Chromoly push rods or Aluminum?
Do you have straight cut cam gears or stock helical cut gear?
Do you have the insulation tarboard in your engine compartment?
If I were building an engine with dual kads it would not be any larger than a 1776cc. |
As I stated, I didn't build the motor, and it came with no supporting documentation. So I really don't have an answer for you. I like the idea of a 1776. It always seemed like a great size motor. Honestly, my 1915 runs really nice and smooth with the KADS, so I not worried about that. But if you said a 1776 was SIGNIFICANTLY quieter than a 1915 that would be a different story.
Honestly, the tar boards have NOTHING to do with it... when I pulled up to the shop today. the guys heard it outside... A guy was at the shop with a RAT ROD with GLASSPACKS and it was significantly quieter than my motor. I can't explain just how loud the MOTOR is. Everyone trys to tell me it's just a "bug" but I'm telling you... there is something that is just LOUD about my motor. All I hear is "its the valves", "choromoly push rods"; but until you hear it, it really doesn't resonate. And the more difficiult part is pinpointing the source...
I pulled the fan belt off today, to make sure it wasn't the fan grinding... and it made ZERO difference. so it something in the motor itself.
Can it be something with the HEADS? If I just pull the heads to take a look, would that be enough? If an engine is noisy, does an 'upper/head' rebuild usually fix it.
If there was something "loose" inside the motor, I would assume it would have just rattled itself apart by now (nearly 10,000 miles on the motor since rebuild).
I'm going to pull the pushrods tomorrow and see if they are aluminum or chromoly. if they are chromoly, then i'm setting the lash WRONG. They need to be 0 and i'm setting them at .0006. So there is that, but I find it hard to believe that just setting the lash would cause THIS MUCH noise.
All the other questions you asked me, I have no answer, as I don't know. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Danwvw
Samba Member
Joined: July 31, 2012
Posts: 8892
Location: Oregon Coast
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 10:53 pm Post subject: Re: Decisions on Engine Size |
|
|
| kevlarian wrote: |
there is something that is just LOUD about my motor. All I hear is "its the valves", "choromoly push rods"; I'm going to pull the pushrods tomorrow and see if they are aluminum or chromoly. if they are chromoly, then i'm setting the lash WRONG. They need to be 0 and i'm setting them at .0006. So there is that, but I find it hard to believe that just setting the lash would cause THIS MUCH noise.
|
Well, that probably is it and probably has a noisy cam. The gear makes a whine.
Maybe go to aluminum pushrods.
_________________
1960 Beetle And 1679cc DP W-100 & Dual Zeniths! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kevlarian
Samba Member
Joined: October 16, 2014
Posts: 636
Location: Orange County, CA
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 10:55 pm Post subject: Re: Decisions on Engine Size |
|
|
| Danwvw wrote: |
| kevlarian wrote: |
there is something that is just LOUD about my motor. All I hear is "its the valves", "choromoly push rods"; I'm going to pull the pushrods tomorrow and see if they are aluminum or chromoly. if they are chromoly, then i'm setting the lash WRONG. They need to be 0 and i'm setting them at .0006. So there is that, but I find it hard to believe that just setting the lash would cause THIS MUCH noise.
|
Well, that probably is it and probably has a noisy cam. The gear makes a whine.
Maybe go to aluminum pushrods. |
I don't KNOW if it is the pushrods, I need to pull them first, i'll see if that is it, but as loud as my motor is, I'm not holding out any hope... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Pruneman99
Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2012
Posts: 5013
Location: Oceanside
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 12:01 am Post subject: Re: Decisions on Engine Size |
|
|
Ok how about posting a link to a video? Move the camera/Mike around so we can hear it?
To pinpoint weird/loud noise from an engine, a $10 mechanics stethoscope is worth it from HF. Or, if you can't swing the $10, a piece of garden hose held to your ear and poked around the engine will help find your "bag of rocks"
Be careful of moving parts please |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
