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Sharp64
Samba Member
Joined: August 27, 2015
Posts: 5304
Location: Central Florida
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 Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 7:38 pm Post subject: Re: Floor Starting My Rebuilt Engine - another won't start thread |
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I’m totally spitballing here... I had a similar sounding issue when I swapped distributors on my dune buggy. Obviously the firing order is the same, but the #1 position was 90* counterclockwise from the 205k going to the 034. Have you tried moving all the wires 1 position counter clockwise?
2 1
3 4
_________________
1960 Indigo Blue Ragtop (Blue Barry)
1967 Ghia
1985 Westy Money Pit
“...some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned, or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn.” - Michael Caine |
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fl59bug
Samba Member
Joined: November 23, 2005
Posts: 1976
Location: North Carolina
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| Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 7:55 pm Post subject: Re: Floor Starting My Rebuilt Engine - another won't start thread |
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| thanks Sharp64, I'll give that a go in the morning and report back with my findings |
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mukluk
Samba Member
Joined: October 18, 2012
Posts: 7023
Location: Clyde, TX
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| Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 8:01 pm Post subject: Re: Floor Starting My Rebuilt Engine - another won't start thread |
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| fl59bug wrote: |
| I popped the valve covers off and watched #1 intake and exhaust close while at the same time verifying the crank pulley 10 degree mark lined up with the crankcase split, and the rotor pointed to the #1 notch in the distributor body. |
Are you observing both valves close on #1 and then continuing to rotate the engine until it hits the timing mark or are you seeing the timing mark align right as the valves close?
My personal theory is your timing is 180° out.
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1960 Ragtop w/Semaphores "Inga" |
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Slow 1200
Samba Member
Joined: July 02, 2004
Posts: 2105
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| Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 3:19 am Post subject: Re: Floor Starting My Rebuilt Engine - another won't start thread |
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personally when I'm setting static timing on an "unkown" engine I don't pay attention to distributor notch, or drive position, the pulley will give you TDC (or close enough to it), the valves will tell you if it's #3 or #1 on firing stroke, then wire accordingly to the post where the rotor is pointing at.
you don't even need a timing light to get it close enough to be able start the engine, the little spark when points open has always worked good enough for me |
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Cusser
Samba Member
Joined: October 02, 2006
Posts: 31362
Location: Hot Arizona
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| Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 3:46 am Post subject: Re: Floor Starting My Rebuilt Engine - another won't start thread |
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| Slow 1200 wrote: |
personally when I'm setting static timing on an "unkown" engine I don't pay attention to distributor notch, or drive position, the pulley will give you TDC (or close enough to it), the valves will tell you if it's #3 or #1 on firing stroke, then wire accordingly to the post where the rotor is pointing at.
you don't even need a timing light to get it close enough to be able start the engine, the little spark when points open has always worked good enough for me |
See the bold above.
_________________
1970 VW (owned since 1972) and 1971 VW Convertible (owned since 1976), second owner of each. The '71 now has the 1835 engine, swapped from the '70. Second owner of each. 1988 Mazda B2200 truck, 1998 Frontier, 2014 Yukon, 2004 Frontier King Cab. All manual transmission except for the Yukon. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335294 http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335297 |
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fl59bug
Samba Member
Joined: November 23, 2005
Posts: 1976
Location: North Carolina
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| Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 4:45 am Post subject: Re: Floor Starting My Rebuilt Engine - another won't start thread |
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| Sharp64 wrote: |
I’m totally spitballing here... I had a similar sounding issue when I swapped distributors on my dune buggy. Obviously the firing order is the same, but the #1 position was 90* counterclockwise from the 205k going to the 034. Have you tried moving all the wires 1 position counter clockwise?
2 1
3 4 |
Well dang, that didn't work  It basically acted the same except it didn't even pop in the carb anymore. I'll continue messing with this thing I guess! |
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parker007
Samba Member
Joined: December 21, 2011
Posts: 132
Location: california
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| Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 5:00 am Post subject: Re: Floor Starting My Rebuilt Engine - another won't start thread |
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| leaking intake valve will blow back in carb also. or wrong cam timing. |
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fl59bug
Samba Member
Joined: November 23, 2005
Posts: 1976
Location: North Carolina
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| Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 5:02 am Post subject: Re: Floor Starting My Rebuilt Engine - another won't start thread |
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| Cusser wrote: |
| Slow 1200 wrote: |
personally when I'm setting static timing on an "unkown" engine I don't pay attention to distributor notch, or drive position, the pulley will give you TDC (or close enough to it), the valves will tell you if it's #3 or #1 on firing stroke, then wire accordingly to the post where the rotor is pointing at.
you don't even need a timing light to get it close enough to be able start the engine, the little spark when points open has always worked good enough for me |
See the bold above. |
Thanks Cusser and the others trying to help  I'll go give this a try.
I couldn't sleep so I got up and swapped out the German 6 volt starter and solenoid for my FLAPS Chinese-made 12 volt one. The engine still turns over nicely, but somewhat slower.
Back to the TDC discussion, I haven't tried the above method, but I have popped the right valve cover off, watched #1 valves close with the crank pulley approaching the TDC mark. I had the #1 plug out and connected to its wire with the electrode near the intake manifold, and as I rotated the crank slowly I watched the plug emit a small spark.
Last night in a further attempt to be sure I was at TDC on #1 I popped the spark plug out of cylinder 1 and put an unsharpened pencil (the wooden end not the metal eraser end lol) in the plug hole. I rotated the engine until the pencil was sticking out the farthest, ensuring I had TDC. Using my test light I then set the static timing to 10 degrees BTDC.
Dont mean to be all over the place with my train of thought, but another question - why is there flame in the throat of the carb and the lower outer ends of the manifold get extremely warm when I crank the engine over for say, 10 seconds. I know this is obviously due to some sort of combustion taking place, but does this point to any further issue proving/disproving timing issues, or something wrong with my heads, intake manifold or even the carburetor itself? |
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Sharp64
Samba Member
Joined: August 27, 2015
Posts: 5304
Location: Central Florida
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| Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 5:03 am Post subject: Re: Floor Starting My Rebuilt Engine - another won't start thread |
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| fl59bug wrote: |
| Sharp64 wrote: |
I’m totally spitballing here... I had a similar sounding issue when I swapped distributors on my dune buggy. Obviously the firing order is the same, but the #1 position was 90* counterclockwise from the 205k going to the 034. Have you tried moving all the wires 1 position counter clockwise?
2 1
3 4 |
Well dang, that didn't work It basically acted the same except it didn't even pop in the carb anymore. I'll continue messing with this thing I guess! |
Just to eliminate, try 180* out. Move everything one more position counter clockwise.
_________________
1960 Indigo Blue Ragtop (Blue Barry)
1967 Ghia
1985 Westy Money Pit
“...some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned, or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn.” - Michael Caine |
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fl59bug
Samba Member
Joined: November 23, 2005
Posts: 1976
Location: North Carolina
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| Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 5:04 am Post subject: Re: Floor Starting My Rebuilt Engine - another won't start thread |
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| parker007 wrote: |
| leaking intake valve will blow back in carb also. or wrong cam timing. |
Thanks. I won't rule out that possibility. I'm trusting the head rebuilder on this |
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fl59bug
Samba Member
Joined: November 23, 2005
Posts: 1976
Location: North Carolina
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| Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 5:05 am Post subject: Re: Floor Starting My Rebuilt Engine - another won't start thread |
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| Sharp64 wrote: |
| fl59bug wrote: |
| Sharp64 wrote: |
I’m totally spitballing here... I had a similar sounding issue when I swapped distributors on my dune buggy. Obviously the firing order is the same, but the #1 position was 90* counterclockwise from the 205k going to the 034. Have you tried moving all the wires 1 position counter clockwise?
2 1
3 4 |
Well dang, that didn't work It basically acted the same except it didn't even pop in the carb anymore. I'll continue messing with this thing I guess! |
Just to eliminate, try 180* out. Move everything one more position counter clockwise. |
I'll do this. Fingers crossed it makes a difference! |
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fl59bug
Samba Member
Joined: November 23, 2005
Posts: 1976
Location: North Carolina
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| Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 5:13 am Post subject: Re: Floor Starting My Rebuilt Engine - another won't start thread |
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| Sharp64 wrote: |
| fl59bug wrote: |
| Sharp64 wrote: |
I’m totally spitballing here... I had a similar sounding issue when I swapped distributors on my dune buggy. Obviously the firing order is the same, but the #1 position was 90* counterclockwise from the 205k going to the 034. Have you tried moving all the wires 1 position counter clockwise?
2 1
3 4 |
Well dang, that didn't work It basically acted the same except it didn't even pop in the carb anymore. I'll continue messing with this thing I guess! |
Just to eliminate, try 180* out. Move everything one more position counter clockwise. |
Sharp64 you are da man!!!!! I swapped the wires clockwise once more and it INSTANTLY!!! fired!!!  I am over the moon right now lol.
Thank you 100,000,000 mizillion times and if you are ever in Harrisburg NC look me up and I will take you to Red Lobster or some other fancy eatery.
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parker007
Samba Member
Joined: December 21, 2011
Posts: 132
Location: california
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| Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 5:14 am Post subject: Re: Floor Starting My Rebuilt Engine - another won't start thread |
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| i think you 180 off. watch valves and time to compression stroke. turn till intake valve close and then turn till tdc |
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Sharp64
Samba Member
Joined: August 27, 2015
Posts: 5304
Location: Central Florida
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| Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 5:30 am Post subject: Re: Floor Starting My Rebuilt Engine - another won't start thread |
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| fl59bug wrote: |
| Sharp64 wrote: |
| fl59bug wrote: |
| Sharp64 wrote: |
I’m totally spitballing here... I had a similar sounding issue when I swapped distributors on my dune buggy. Obviously the firing order is the same, but the #1 position was 90* counterclockwise from the 205k going to the 034. Have you tried moving all the wires 1 position counter clockwise?
2 1
3 4 |
Well dang, that didn't work It basically acted the same except it didn't even pop in the carb anymore. I'll continue messing with this thing I guess! |
Just to eliminate, try 180* out. Move everything one more position counter clockwise. |
Sharp64 you are da man!!!!! I swapped the wires clockwise once more and it INSTANTLY!!! fired!!! I am over the moon right now lol.
Thank you 100,000,000 mizillion times and if you are ever in Harrisburg NC look me up and I will take you to Red Lobster or some other fancy eatery.
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Someone else actually mentioned it before I did, I was just more insistent. Glad it worked out. Now the question is, what is installed incorrectly so that its 180* off? Sounds like the distributor drive is correct, which makes the tang in the distributor correct, so is the crank in wrong?
_________________
1960 Indigo Blue Ragtop (Blue Barry)
1967 Ghia
1985 Westy Money Pit
“...some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned, or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn.” - Michael Caine |
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fl59bug
Samba Member
Joined: November 23, 2005
Posts: 1976
Location: North Carolina
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| Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 5:31 am Post subject: Re: Floor Starting My Rebuilt Engine - another won't start thread |
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| parker007 wrote: |
| i think you 180 off. watch valves and time to compression stroke. turn till intake valve close and then turn till tdc |
yep I was 180 out. Sharp64 hooked me up with the fix for this.
Now that the beast will run, I gotta ask, what went wrong with my understanding of timing my engine. This basically throws off everything I ever "thought" I knew about air cooled type 1 engine timing.
I assembled this motor, so I'm not a complete dummy (close but not 100% dummy ) and I thought I did everything right.
Here is a sketch of the setup that got me running, and it makes zero sense to me but I won't look a gift horse in the mouth lol:
In the sketch is the current wiring of my 009, and later when I swap back to the OG vacuum advance distrib it'll be that one too. The car runs perfect with this wiring. Also in the sketch is the distributor gear when #1 is at top dead center.
I swear I put the cam dots and crank do in mesh when I assembled the thing, and I removed and reinstalled the drive gear 2 times just to get it as it shows in my sketch. Again, what did I do wrong?
Thanks so much again everyone for staying with me until this little monster got running again! |
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fl59bug
Samba Member
Joined: November 23, 2005
Posts: 1976
Location: North Carolina
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| Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 5:34 am Post subject: Re: Floor Starting My Rebuilt Engine - another won't start thread |
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| Sharp64 wrote: |
| fl59bug wrote: |
| Sharp64 wrote: |
| fl59bug wrote: |
| Sharp64 wrote: |
I’m totally spitballing here... I had a similar sounding issue when I swapped distributors on my dune buggy. Obviously the firing order is the same, but the #1 position was 90* counterclockwise from the 205k going to the 034. Have you tried moving all the wires 1 position counter clockwise?
2 1
3 4 |
Well dang, that didn't work It basically acted the same except it didn't even pop in the carb anymore. I'll continue messing with this thing I guess! |
Just to eliminate, try 180* out. Move everything one more position counter clockwise. |
Sharp64 you are da man!!!!! I swapped the wires clockwise once more and it INSTANTLY!!! fired!!! I am over the moon right now lol.
Thank you 100,000,000 mizillion times and if you are ever in Harrisburg NC look me up and I will take you to Red Lobster or some other fancy eatery.
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Someone else actually mentioned it before I did, I was just more insistent. Glad it worked out. Now the question is, what is installed incorrectly so that its 180* off? Sounds like the distributor drive is correct, which makes the tang in the distributor correct, so is the crank in wrong? |
yes I apologize to all of you that mentioned it being 180 out, want to give you many props for your suggestion too. Please don't take me to be rude for not giving credit to each and everyone that contributed to this thread!
Sharp, I wonder what I did wrong when assembling too, since I know I put the cam and crank gear in mesh properly. I could have messed that up who knows as I may be gettin' senile lol |
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Sharp64
Samba Member
Joined: August 27, 2015
Posts: 5304
Location: Central Florida
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| Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 5:40 am Post subject: Re: Floor Starting My Rebuilt Engine - another won't start thread |
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Where is the key slot in the crank? What position is it in?
_________________
1960 Indigo Blue Ragtop (Blue Barry)
1967 Ghia
1985 Westy Money Pit
“...some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned, or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn.” - Michael Caine |
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fl59bug
Samba Member
Joined: November 23, 2005
Posts: 1976
Location: North Carolina
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| Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 5:47 am Post subject: Re: Floor Starting My Rebuilt Engine - another won't start thread |
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| I was wondering that too. Its supposed to be in the 9 o' clock position from what was mentioned by others with #1 at TDC. I'll need to undo the pulley bolt so I can see behind it to be sure. I'll put that on the todo list. |
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Cusser
Samba Member
Joined: October 02, 2006
Posts: 31362
Location: Hot Arizona
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| Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 8:17 am Post subject: Re: Floor Starting My Rebuilt Engine - another won't start thread |
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| fl59bug wrote: |
| crankshaft woodruff key.... Its supposed to be in the 9 o' clock position from what was mentioned by others with #1 at TDC. |
That position would be TDC #1 or TDC #3.
Never use a pencil - like you did. Steal a plastic drinking straw from McDonald's!!!
_________________
1970 VW (owned since 1972) and 1971 VW Convertible (owned since 1976), second owner of each. The '71 now has the 1835 engine, swapped from the '70. Second owner of each. 1988 Mazda B2200 truck, 1998 Frontier, 2014 Yukon, 2004 Frontier King Cab. All manual transmission except for the Yukon. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335294 http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335297 |
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fl59bug
Samba Member
Joined: November 23, 2005
Posts: 1976
Location: North Carolina
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| Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 8:25 am Post subject: Re: Floor Starting My Rebuilt Engine - another won't start thread |
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| Cusser wrote: |
| fl59bug wrote: |
| crankshaft woodruff key.... Its supposed to be in the 9 o' clock position from what was mentioned by others with #1 at TDC. |
That position would be TDC #1 or TDC #3.
Never use a pencil - like you did. Steal a plastic drinking straw from McDonald's!!! |
Will do Cusser thanks! |
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