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AAZ valve cover oil leak - no surprise
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Gizmoman
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2018 1:00 pm    Post subject: AAZ valve cover oil leak - no surprise Reply with quote

After more than 10 attempts, I have never completely stopped the valve cover leaks on my 50° AAZ. Yes the cover is perfectly flat. As for sealer I put dabs, no dabs, full seal, different brands (Right Stuff, Permatex Hi temp, etc.) - no joy.

A few days ago I ordered another brand new gasket set (Elwis) and figured I make another attempt. The first thing I discovered when I went to remove the valve cover was the grommet that seals the breather (typically called the "hockey puck") into the valve cover was in bad shape and not sealing very well - yes, it was leaking as well.

As I have built a custom intake which made the hockey puck not fit well, I had fabbed up a different breather affair and have been using this (with a catch-can) for several years. This was part of the grommet sealing problem as my home made unit didn't have the same barbed fitting profile as the plastic hockey puck.

This time, when I had the cover off, I decided that one of the problems is because the engine sits at 50° the hole for the hockey puck is on the down-hill side of the valve cover. This location is also why the stock breather wont work (in my case) because it's too close to the manifold tube. So, I cut a new 1" hole and brazed in a short tube so I could attach a 1" ID hose. The hole is located at one of the areas of the valve cover where it has a secondary chamber on the inside. The hole for the hockey puck is located in a similar place - just on the other side.

I cleaned both the sealing surface of the head and cover till they shined, and wiped them with lacquer thinner. The gasket fit perfectly and I thought I'd try to see how things went with no sealer at all as I had read that some had good luck with this approach. I torqued down the three nuts according to spec and installed my new, very simple breather. This simply consists of a 1" tee fitting, a very short piece of 1" hose (T to valve cover, a 1" hose from the block breather to the "T", and another 1" hose from the "T" to the catch can. The catch can is simply a plastic bottle with a 1-1/2 neck. I have never had any liquid oil in it but it has turned black on the several years I have been running it.

Anyway, after I got everything assembled, I started it up and let it sit and idle till it came up to temp. I was surprised to see I had zero oil leaks! I must say that I still didn't believe I had solved it based on past history but still, I was hopeful.
This morning, I wrapped up everything, pressure washed the oil stains off the driveway, and took it for a quick spin. When I got home, I took a quick glance under the van and it's still leaking :Smile

At this point I am wondering of the 20 lbs of boost (which I wouldn't have with it idling) is somehow making it's way past the pistons and producing more pressure than the 1" hose can dump - making the oil actually blow out from between the valve cover seal. I know this sounds crazy but I just don't understand why this thing is so hard to seal. I also wonder of there is something about the stock hockey puck that makes not using it create some issue that would make the cover leak like this.

Here are some pictures of what I have - BTW, I brazed the stock hockey puck hole shut. Also, the weird thing in the upper right of the first photo is the contraption I made to replace the breather. It is filled with stainless steel scrubbing pads. Now all I have is a "T" fitting.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



I am totally stumped and would appreciate any insight from the group. Thanks for reading my novel Razz

Jim
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Zeitgeist 13
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2018 1:11 pm    Post subject: Re: AAZ valve cover oil leak - no surprise Reply with quote

I've never liked that style of center attachment cover, and there's probably a good reason VAG went back to a perimeter attachment with the ALH. Is it possible to drill the holes for studs in the cover and head, and then use the center and perimeter attachments?
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2018 1:55 pm    Post subject: Re: AAZ valve cover oil leak - no surprise Reply with quote

Gizmoman, sorry to hear of your ongoing troubles; I can certainly relate, as we've previously discussed:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8686903

Barring any other PCV restrictions, I certainly don't believe that the 1" ID hose is insufficient to carry the pressure on anything but an engine in the final throes of death by extreme cylinder wear. The stock hose is slightly larger than HALF that diameter.

Where is the gasket leaking, in the classic left-rear corner, between the intake manifold and camshaft sprocket? Are you using the camshaft oil baffle?
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Before embarking on what may the Nucular (sic) Option (drilling the head to accept a cast valve cover using the eight perimeter studs/bolts), did you see my previous offhand mention of a potential means of tightening up the stamped valve cover?
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Perhaps some braces like these might help to better carry the bolt tension outward to the sidewalls and hence to the sealing flange. They could be fabricated from heavy flat bar stock, and either left flat like really wide 'washers,' convexly curved, or short 'legs' could be added to ensure that all tension is transferred to the sidewalls.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2018 2:31 pm    Post subject: Re: AAZ valve cover oil leak - no surprise Reply with quote

I had chronic AAZ blowby until I installed the advanced breather with 2 tubes:
https://www.google.com/search?&q=06A103465D
Not to be confused with an earlier version for only one hose:
https://www.google.com/search?&q=06A103465
When I put the AAZ in at 50º it had an occasional burp of oil, always after pushing it hard while running in city for while. It turned out this was because the original UFO (hockey puck) oil separator doesn’t run as designed unless its level. Technically it is a cyclone separator but at 50º oil pools at the downside and slowly blocks the cyclone action. At high blowby pressure it will push the pool out suddenly and you will get a big burp of oil and say WTF.

The cap with additional ports splits the flow between more areas of pressure flow, reducing gas velocity and therefore oil vapor. This first part has two openings to plug the tube into coming from below, other end is vented. As a bonus, it also makes it easier to put oil into the top. The part with one opening means all your blowby has to come out the valve cover which increases the velocity of the blowby coming up from below so it carries more oil vapor, not ideal. The topic is discussed on some of the diesel forums as a solution to older engines with blowby. My opinion is that the AAZ venting is inadequate for the Vanagon and should be routinely upgraded.
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Gizmoman
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2018 3:52 pm    Post subject: Re: AAZ valve cover oil leak - no surprise Reply with quote

Gnarlodius, did the dual pot puck help with a leaky cover? I appreciate the clear explination of the stock puck. Now that I have a "new" port I may be able to get the stock puck to work as it would be fairly level now.

I am not using the camshaft baffle and while it looks nice, if the cover leaks, it's still going to leak with the baffle in my opinion.
As for where it's leaking, it really tough to say - the whole side of the head has a thin coating.

Jeffery, I like the concept of steel braces and was thinking along those same lines. The head actually has a cast bump on both sides I may be able to use as a clamping surface but as i'ts not perpendicular to the sealing surface would tend to just slip off.

I have to say that after pressure washing it again, I went to remove the cover and found that all three nuts were not as tight as I recall, Possibly warming things up caused the rubber to shrink a bit. I re-tightened them and went for another spin. When I got back there was a very small amount on the rear (vans rear) side of the head but it may have just been residual that I couldn't get to with the pressure washer. It was not enough to drip onto the block or the drive way so maybe I have it solved.

I'll keep you posted.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2018 3:58 pm    Post subject: Re: AAZ valve cover oil leak - no surprise Reply with quote

No, I still had slight seepage at the bottom rear corner. I finally used Permatex® on it and the leak stopped. But the whole point is, a high internal pressure is going to cause leaks no matter how good you seal it up. Having two paths for blowby instead of one makes all the difference.
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Zeitgeist 13
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2018 8:03 pm    Post subject: Re: AAZ valve cover oil leak - no surprise Reply with quote

The baffle won't prevent leakages, but it theoretically should limit the volume of oil escaping since it's deflects downward oil that would otherwise be flung up striking the valve cover and then running down into the egress points.
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Gizmoman
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2018 9:25 pm    Post subject: Re: AAZ valve cover oil leak - no surprise Reply with quote

Zeitgeist 13 wrote:
The baffle won't prevent leakages, but it theoretically should limit the volume of oil escaping since it's deflects downward oil that would otherwise be flung up striking the valve cover and then running down into the egress points.

Good point
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2018 8:56 am    Post subject: Re: AAZ valve cover oil leak - no surprise Reply with quote

Does anyone know if at the 50 degree(AAZ) install the gasket cover and head interface is bathed in oil on the lower side, or just splashed? I am hearing conflicting opinions around the forum, I personally don't know how much oil is up in the head while running at speeds. I had the valve cover off once while running at idle, but it was splashing oil and not bathed in oil.

I like what Gnarlodious suggestion about the hockey puck breather. Thanks for your input.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2018 12:46 pm    Post subject: Re: AAZ valve cover oil leak - no surprise Reply with quote

My guess is without the splash cover mentioned previously, the lower side of the cover gets a pretty good soaking.

I went out this morning and took a real good look.
There are still plenty of tiny leaks here and there- One at the o-ring seal between the plastic oil filler tube where it bolts to the flange at the oil pan (this should be an easy fix). I believe either the front cam seal or IM shaft seal is leaking and possibly the rear main as well. They are all quite small leaks but sufficient to make the driveway and the back of the nearly white van look like crap. I also plan on towing my motorcycle behind the van and can't do that till I get the airborne oil stopped.

Now I'm considering fabbing up a belly pan/wind-age tray out of 16 or 18 GA sheet. It would have a drain plug so I could periodically drain it. The bottom would be one sheet and I'd make another about 1/4" above the lower pans inside surface that would fit inside and have several holes in it. This would contain the dribbles yet keep the wind from blowing it out.

I am posting my issues on anther forum (IDI diesel.net) as well and a long time and respected member suggested tapping into the intake pre-turbo. I believe this would really take a lot of pressure off the lower engine and may even stop the leaks all together as it would pull negative pressure.
It will also coat the intake and inter-cooler with some oil but I don't appear to have much in the blow-by. I think it's worth considering.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2023 7:55 pm    Post subject: Re: AAZ valve cover oil leak - no surprise Reply with quote

My AAZ does the same..


I think the engine angle means you get leakage from the top cover.

its not designed to sit in oil and seal.

I might try a fully rubber/ silicone gasket of some kind.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2023 8:08 am    Post subject: Re: AAZ valve cover oil leak - no surprise Reply with quote

I had the same issue with my AAZ, same application, tipped over in a Vanagon, dripping oil down the back.

I had the block rebuilt completely, put it all back together, and used the regular AAZ rubber gasket.

No leaks.

The issue is blow by. If you have too much, the oil gets pushed out everywhere. Only solution I have found that works, is reduce the blow by.

It is actually not very expensive to get the block rebuilt, if you tear it down yourself and remove everything from it. They dipped it in a tank to clean it, then bored it out, replaced all the bearings, machined the crank and fit oversize pistons and rings, and then I put it all back together again. Total cost to me was $800.00 (although I did this in 2012, it probably costs more now).
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2023 1:11 pm    Post subject: Re: AAZ valve cover oil leak - no surprise Reply with quote

Chris, when I check the air coming out of my oil cap it seems really reasonable, and clean.

whats the best way to measure blow by? compression test?
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2023 1:50 pm    Post subject: Re: AAZ valve cover oil leak - no surprise Reply with quote

mattlamb wrote:
Chris, when I check the air coming out of my oil cap it seems really reasonable, and clean.

whats the best way to measure blow by? compression test?


ideally youd need to check under load

i know for the old 1.6 motors i think even the bentley had a spec for crankcase pressure while loaded...

if you can pop a low low pressure boost gauge into some crankcase breather plumbing and monitor that under some sustained higher load, thatd probably be the best way to tell
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2023 11:26 am    Post subject: Re: AAZ valve cover oil leak - no surprise Reply with quote

mattlamb wrote:
Chris, when I check the air coming out of my oil cap it seems really reasonable, and clean.

whats the best way to measure blow by? compression test?


All blow by really is on a diesel is intake air getting past the piston rings during the compression stroke, and ending up in the crank case, where it then pressurizes your engine. Oil leaks will pop up everywhere and you can't seal them.

It is a bigger problem in diesels because they don't have any engine vacuum.

You can test it pretty easily just by checking the pressure in the block while the engine is running under load. The trick is checking under load. You will see, if you check at idle, that there is a small amount of crank case gas being released. However, under load the situation changes quite a lot and you can have a steady flow of crank case gasses coming out, when the engine is at speed. It is quite remarkable to see it and you understand why all the oil is coming out.

What I used to do with mine is hook a hose up to my crank case ventilation coming out of the block, and then plumb it through any hole I could find, and into an oil bottle with holes in it (a lot of oil will come out with the crank case gasses). I could then see the approximate amount of blow by I had, while driving the car with the windows open and my little experimental oil bottle hanging out the passenger side window (the hill folk method?).

You can clearly see the amount of excess pressure that you have. I guess you could do that and hook some sort of a gauge up to it?

The engine has a crank case ventilation system, which plumbs the crank case gasses back into the intake, to be reused as intake air. The problem happens when the amount of blow by is way more than the crank case vent system can handle.

The engine also would have low compression usually in that situation, though not always.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2024 7:41 am    Post subject: Re: AAZ valve cover oil leak - no surprise Reply with quote

Hey all, first post here! Maybe this should be a new topic but it's definitely oil leakage related so hopefully someone here has some insight.

My last big oil leak appears to be coming from the EGR valve. Do you think this could be making its way through the puck all the way to the intake manifold and out the side into the EGR valve? If it was making it that far, I'd expect to see more oil in the intake manifold and hoses leading there. There is a slight film in there but the bottom of the EGR valve always has a drip and everything below it (turbo, engine mount, etc) is completely covered in oil.

It seems more likely that it would be coming from the exhaust manifold and the pipe that leads directly to the EGR valve.

Anyone seen this kind of leak? I can get some pictures if that helps.
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