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Who.Me? 
Samba Member
Joined: July 14, 2014
Posts: 2211
Location: UK (South)
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 Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 1:05 am Post subject: Re: My new baby! |
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| BUCIOBATISTI wrote: |
There are several possible scenarios including:
1. Faked Birth Certificate, photoshopped, etc.
2. A VIN robbed from another legitimate 1959 23 Window, stamped into or welded into this Bus, and a Birth Certificate was obtained based upon that number that has nothing to do with the original VIN or identity of the "main portion" of this Bus, whichever section that might be viewed as.
3. It's a legit VIN that actually belongs to a portion of this Bus. With the horrendous amount of cobbling going on from end to end, with such alarmingly low quality, and so many sections from different generations and different models, it would just be one tile in a huge patchwork quilt. Even if the VIN proves to be legit and actually belong to what this Bus started as, it's such a tremendously diluted pile of shit that it's hysterical that Mecum had it march across their stage.
Any other sensible theories? |
3b. It's a legit VIN that actually belongs to a portion of this Bus, but the donor section was so badly rusted the first digit had to be re-stamped. To my (unqualified) eye, the rest of the VIN looks like it *might* have been factory-stamped.
I feel for the OP, but I can't imagine spending that sort of cash on anything without having it inspected by someone who knows what they're doing, or without a cast-iron money-back guarantee.
_________________
Andy
Looking for info on my truck's history. Are you from Campbell California or nearby. Do you recognise it? ... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=636786 |
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larrythedog
Samba Member
Joined: February 14, 2004
Posts: 14
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| Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 5:40 am Post subject: Re: My new baby! |
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| The buyer should immediately invest the $100 (or so) to get another birth certificate. ( Although I cannot give a compelling reason, when I compare this bus' to my bus' Stiftung birth certificate, it just seems "different') Unfortunately the certificates can take months (4 in my case) to get but the buyer should have a known legitimate one in hand. Alternatively it may be possible to email Stiftung for confirmation that his certificate is not a cut and paste. |
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Major Woody
Samba Enigma
Joined: December 04, 2002
Posts: 9010
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 10:07 am Post subject: Re: My new baby! |
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| larrythedog wrote: |
| The buyer should immediately invest the $100 (or so) to get another birth certificate. ( Although I cannot give a compelling reason, when I compare this bus' to my bus' Stiftung birth certificate, it just seems "different') Unfortunately the certificates can take months (4 in my case) to get but the buyer should have a known legitimate one in hand. Alternatively it may be possible to email Stiftung for confirmation that his certificate is not a cut and paste. |
Excellent advice, due to the time required to get the legitimate birth certificate. Best to have attorney order the certificate, I believe. |
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BUCIOBATISTI
Samba Member
Joined: April 17, 2002
Posts: 6956
Location: San Diego, California, USA
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| Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 12:57 pm Post subject: Re: My new baby! |
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BUCIOBATISTI
Samba Member
Joined: April 17, 2002
Posts: 6956
Location: San Diego, California, USA
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| Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 12:58 pm Post subject: Re: My new baby! |
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_________________
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BUCIOBATISTI
Samba Member
Joined: April 17, 2002
Posts: 6956
Location: San Diego, California, USA
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| Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 12:58 pm Post subject: Re: My new baby! |
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_________________
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BUCIOBATISTI
Samba Member
Joined: April 17, 2002
Posts: 6956
Location: San Diego, California, USA
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| Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 1:14 pm Post subject: Re: My new baby! |
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A couple new ideas on things to investigate...
1. Measure the size of the heater log. 1955-1963 was 50mm, 1963-1967 was 60mm.
2. Check if the belly pans have the extra length that extends to the third outrigger at the rear wheel. 1959 and earlier had that longer outer belly pan section, 1960-1967 was shorter, and ended at the second outrigger.
Increasingly we are of the belief that the "midsection" of the Bus *may* have started as an early era Standard Microbus. That would account for the heater log, the early style trans mount for the split case transaxle nose cone cup/donut, outie style engine vents that never had vent trim clips as they weren't from a Deluxe, the hacked in homemade corner window holes, the boogery welded on belly pans that probably never belonged to the Bus, the probable hacked in Deluxe roof, or a cobbled together roof, skylights, sunroof, etc.
As for the front of the Bus, we all agree that the wheel well closeout sections are NOT factory bench seat/passenger Bus/or Deluxe as there is no toe kick bump at the bottom.
Explanations for that include that the base of the bulkhead section either came from a Walktru Bus, or a new one just mentioned from another friend, it could suggest that a good portion of the front cab clip came from a Single Cab!
Take note of the semaphore securing nuts on the B pillars, below the headliner. They are highly suspicious, the semaphores are not consistent with the Los Angeles delivery claimed on the supposed Birth Certificate, and so on... The B pillars should have the rectangular tar board panels beneath the headliner that smooths out that contour, and I believe it should have a round hole around the semaphore mounting sleeve/nut.
Bottom line, the more we look, the more horrendous grossness and cobbling of so many different cars comes to light.
This thing is in a league all its own and will likely be the new benchmark for a cobbled Frankenstein.
So far, nothing can undoubtedly be proven to have been sourced from a German factory 1959 23 Window. We can't even say for sure that the VIN number even came from one as the Birth Certificate could well be faked, the VIN could very well be tampered with, or it simply is an adopted number from a completely different Bus.
We will keep digging and rest assured more discoveries are coming.
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Alan Brase
Samba Member
Joined: March 28, 2004
Posts: 4532
Location: Cedar Falls, Iowa
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| Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 2:38 pm Post subject: Re: My new baby! |
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| BeaterBarndoor wrote: |
It’s horrible to see such a situation with this much money involved especially. Hopefully the outcome is positive for the buyer.
My one question from early on in this thread, am I the only one who sees 2 different ‘4s’ on the obvious original VIN number below? They all look the same for the faked bus, different sequence of course. It’s just my guess that maybe those who stamped the numbers at the factory just had mix match stamps?
I didn’t see any mention on this in the reading, unless I looked over it.
Could be a real 59 vin but holy moly on the rest of the bus. Sad.
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Something else a little funny: the hole for the screw that holds the metal VIN tag looks to me like it has never had a self tapping screw in it. Like it never even had a tag mounted- ever. That looks like a fresh hole, maybe punched, not drilled.
Al
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Al Brase
Projects: 67 sunroof bug, 67 Porsche 912 Targa, 70 Westy
Dec 1955 Single Cab pickup WANT 15" BUS RIMS dated 8/55, thru 12/55
To New owners: 1969 doublecab, 1971 Dormobile
Vanagons:
80 P27 Westy JUL 1979, 3rd oldest known US
83 1.6TD Vanagon, 87 Wolfie Westy daily driver, swap meet home |
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hitest
Samba Member
Joined: September 30, 2008
Posts: 10296
Location: Prime Meridian, ID
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| Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 3:18 pm Post subject: Re: My new baby! |
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| Alan Brase wrote: |
| BeaterBarndoor wrote: |
It’s horrible to see such a situation with this much money involved especially. Hopefully the outcome is positive for the buyer.
My one question from early on in this thread, am I the only one who sees 2 different ‘4s’ on the obvious original VIN number below? They all look the same for the faked bus, different sequence of course. It’s just my guess that maybe those who stamped the numbers at the factory just had mix match stamps?
I didn’t see any mention on this in the reading, unless I looked over it.
Could be a real 59 vin but holy moly on the rest of the bus. Sad.
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Something else a little funny: the hole for the screw that holds the metal VIN tag looks to me like it has never had a self tapping screw in it. Like it never even had a tag mounted- ever. That looks like a fresh hole, maybe punched, not drilled.
Al |
The guy doing the deed probably ground off any flaring of those holes in preparation of the artificial inserialization work.
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| EverettB wrote: |
I wonder what the nut looks like.
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'62 L390 151, '62 L469 117, '63 L380 113, '64 L87 311, '65 L512 265, '65 L31 SO-42, '66 L360 251, '68 L30k 141, '71 L12 113, '74 ORG 181
FU#5 |
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hazetguy
Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2001
Posts: 10773
Location: iT StiNgeD iTseLf tO dEAd
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| Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 3:18 pm Post subject: Re: My new baby! |
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another minor tidbit would be to look at the wiring harness where it enters and leaves the frame (center floor section of the bus). a bus that left the factory with 'real' bellypans will have a tube that the harness runs through, and i think you can see the tube sticking out the rear of the rear crossmember through the opening in the frame above the torsion housing, perhaps even out where it enters in the front (been a while since i've done a bellypan bus harness).
regarding the painted hole: holes look like that after a bus (or anything) has been painted and nothing reinstalled in the hole.
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thebucket: I invested in hoodride, now DBD won't return my call?
hazetguy: invested?
thebucket: Yeah Haze, its where people put money into a company in hopes of a return on their money |
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Alan Brase
Samba Member
Joined: March 28, 2004
Posts: 4532
Location: Cedar Falls, Iowa
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| Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 3:41 pm Post subject: Re: My new baby! |
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| hitest wrote: |
The guy doing the deed probably ground off any flaring of those holes in preparation of the artificial inserialization work. |
GROAN !! No! You didn't say that!
_________________
Al Brase
Projects: 67 sunroof bug, 67 Porsche 912 Targa, 70 Westy
Dec 1955 Single Cab pickup WANT 15" BUS RIMS dated 8/55, thru 12/55
To New owners: 1969 doublecab, 1971 Dormobile
Vanagons:
80 P27 Westy JUL 1979, 3rd oldest known US
83 1.6TD Vanagon, 87 Wolfie Westy daily driver, swap meet home |
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easy e
Samba Member
Joined: May 28, 2008
Posts: 3931
Location: 1 hr north of Santa Barbara
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BUCIOBATISTI
Samba Member
Joined: April 17, 2002
Posts: 6956
Location: San Diego, California, USA
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| Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 4:26 pm Post subject: Re: My new baby! |
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Heater Logs...
50mm is 1955-1963
60mm is 1963-1967
25.4mms per inch meaning a 50mm would be almost right on 2 inches, this one is over 2.5 inches, it's the late model 60mm tube for 1963-1967
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1585277
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campingbox
Samba Member
Joined: November 14, 2000
Posts: 10196
Location: Petaluma, CA
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| Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 4:38 pm Post subject: Re: My new baby! |
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| Wasnt that change in '65? Isn't that dimension OD for the tubing underneath? One would assume the log changed, but I don't know if the numbers are the same. 2.75" is ~70mm. |
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BUCIOBATISTI
Samba Member
Joined: April 17, 2002
Posts: 6956
Location: San Diego, California, USA
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| Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 5:08 pm Post subject: Re: My new baby! |
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| campingbox wrote: |
| Wasnt that change in '65? Isn't that dimension OD for the tubing underneath? One would assume the log changed, but I don't know if the numbers are the same. 2.75" is ~70mm. |
You tell me! You know that one better than I do, just trying to determine the age of the different sections of the Bus.
Is the 50/60mm the size of the tube that leads up to the actual heater log?
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1585277
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easy e
Samba Member
Joined: May 28, 2008
Posts: 3931
Location: 1 hr north of Santa Barbara
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Clara
Samba Member
Joined: June 14, 2003
Posts: 12400
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| Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 5:42 pm Post subject: Re: My new baby! |
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The heater log changed at ch 1 306 xxx in April 1964.
At the same time the heater outlets under the dash changed to have the grills,
and the heater boxes changed from 50 mm to 60 ID.
The heater log in the '59 deluxe' looks correct for April 64 and older.
Genuine German 63 deluxe:
I think the camera is at slightly different angle in the two pics.
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EverettB
Administrator
Joined: April 11, 2000
Posts: 69824
Location: Phoenix Metro
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LAGrunthaner
Samba Member
Joined: March 18, 2007
Posts: 5509
Location: 1st Coast
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| Posted: Sat Mar 03, 2018 5:26 am Post subject: Re: My new baby! |
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Thanks Everett for removing these ads, you are my hero 
| EverettB wrote: |
This ad has been removed as we don't allow these ads, due to possible fraud
If you see ads like this - please hit report in the ad. |
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| Lind wrote: |
| Have you considered simply starting with a nicer bus? I don't know what your skills are, but the race is easier if you can see the finish line. If you are not a runner, don't start off doing a marathon. |
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BUCIOBATISTI
Samba Member
Joined: April 17, 2002
Posts: 6956
Location: San Diego, California, USA
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| Posted: Sat Mar 03, 2018 9:28 pm Post subject: Re: My new baby! |
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Consider the following pics to be the next bits of evidence and your upper division exam is to state the following:
1. Call out abnormalities you see.
2. Point out details not consistent with a German "1959 23 Window"
3. Give us your BEST INTELLIGENT THEORY of what this Bus could have started out as.
We have a pretty good theory that we won't share until we hear from some of you first...
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