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djkeev
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Joined: September 30, 2007
Posts: 32625
Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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 Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 10:22 am Post subject: How do your 1969 Turn Signals work? |
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How do turn signals work?
I bet you've never thought about it have you?
I am helping a fellow member sort through a wiring problem he is having with his 1969 Ghia Coupe.
I have the same year and model.
During the course of helping and looking and thinking I discovered that the Bentley Wiring schematic for the 1969 is NOT for the entire 69 model year.
Actually the 69 wiring more closely resembles the 1970 wiring.
We got over that hurdle and I came to realize that I do NOT know how the Turn Signals and 4 way flashers share a flasher relay.
I know they do indeed share a relay ..... but HOW?
I really hate when I don't understand something.
I searched online for answers but found none.
So I did what any curious obsessed guy would do, I pulled out my 4 way switch and my flasher relay.
Pretty switch! 
I cleaned it up a bit and got out my 12 volt bench top power pack.
I have a box of wires with ends and wired up the two units as the 1970 wiring diagram shows........
I got out my circuit tester and went at it, systematically testing the unit with key on, key off, switch on, switch off scenarios.
I had been thinking that the relay was only powered when the 4 way or the turn signal switch was turned on.
It doesn't work that way at all!
Essentially the Flasher relay is always ready, powered up and ready to flash when the ignition is on.
Once I realized this my comprehension light went on! 
Anyway...... here is how the system works........
_________________
Stop Dead Photo Links how to post photos
Ghia
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=392473
Vanagon
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6315537#6315537
Beetle
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=482968&highlight=74+super+vert
Last edited by djkeev on Thu Mar 15, 2018 3:25 pm; edited 6 times in total |
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djkeev
Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007
Posts: 32625
Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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| Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 10:27 am Post subject: Re: How do your Turn Signals work? |
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69 Karmann Ghia Turn Signals and 4 way.
________________
When the key is OFF and the 4 way switch is OFF .......
There is power to Terminal 30 via a Red Always Hot Wire from fuse 9.
*************
When the key is OFF and the 4 way switch is ON .......
Power from terminal 30 is transferred to Terminal (+).
12v is transmitted via a WHITE wire from Switch Terminal (+) to the Flasher Relay Terminal (+).
Flasher Terminal (+) energizes Flasher Terminal 49a
Power from Flasher Terminal 49a is transferred via a BLUE wire to Switch Terminal 49a
Switch 49a energizes Switch Terminals L & R
Terminals L & R go to the turn signal bulb completing the circuit.
*************
When the Key is ON and the 4 way Switch is OFF
There is still power at Switch Terminal 30 because it is an unswitched feed.
The Key energizes Switch Terminal 15 via a BLACK wire from fuse 1 or 2.
Terminal 15 energizes Switch Terminal (+)
Switch Terminal (+) energizes Flasher Relay Terminal (+) via a WHITE wire
Relay Terminal (+) energizes Relay Terminal 49a
Relay Terminal 49a energizes Switch Terminal 49a via a BLUE wire
************
When the Key is ON and the 4 way Switch is turned ON
There is still power at Switch Terminal 30 because it is an unswitched feed.
The Key energizes Switch Terminal 15 via a BLACK wire.
Terminal 15 energizes Switch Terminal (+)
Switch Terminal (+) energizes Flasher Relay Terminal (+) via a WHITE wire
Relay Terminal (+) energizes Relay Terminal 49a
Relay Terminal 49a energizes Switch Terminal 49a via a BLUE wire
PLUS Switch Terminals L & R are energized which feed to the Turn signal bulbs.
***********
NOTE:
The Flasher Relay is ALWAYS POWERED when the key is on.
It does not operate until the circuit is completed by pulling out the 4 way flasher knob.
TURN SIGNALS
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Turn Signals operate only with the Key ON.
When the Key is turned ON.....
All of the 4 way Terminals are activated exactly as in Key ON 4 way OFF listed above.
What I haven't yet mentioned is that the BLUE wire from Flasher 49a to Switch 49a has a junction where it joins a Black/Green/White wire that feeds the Turn Signal Switch at Terminal 54
When the Turn Signal Switch is activated either left or right, the bulbs are activated on that side completing the circuit.
Simple once you (I) understand it!
Dave
_________________
Stop Dead Photo Links how to post photos
Ghia
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=392473
Vanagon
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6315537#6315537
Beetle
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=482968&highlight=74+super+vert
Last edited by djkeev on Sat Mar 17, 2018 5:41 am; edited 2 times in total |
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djkeev
Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007
Posts: 32625
Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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| Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 9:52 am Post subject: Re: How do your 1969 Turn Signals work? |
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True Confession time.
I'm pretty sharp when it comes to nuts and bolts. Give me gears and pistons and mechanical things, I'll have that trouble fixed in a heart beat!
When we venture into the mysterious world of electronics? .......... well....... I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed! 
I get by, I can read a wiring diagram with the best of them! I even prefer those new fangled diagrams with the circuit paths instead of a bunch of colored lines wandering all over the page.
The old wiring diagrams show me only where a wire goes.
The circuit path diagrams show me where they go PLUS what they do! Even the switches and relays are shown with function.
For example,
The three terminal turn signal flasher relay......
The four way flasher switch......
While I figured out how the four way and the turn signals work, not knowing exactly how the dash indicator works bothered me immensely!
The wire from the flasher relay on terminal KBL is hot isn't it?
It certainly isn't VW Brown Ground!
But........
The back of the Speedo is fed with a hot +12v wire when the key is on.
Two +12v feeds for one light bulb?
Look at the circuit path diagram...... where is the ground wire?!?!?
Answer: There ISN'T ONE!!!!
So, two hot feeds, no ground, what the fu...........????????
The bulb mounting plate to the Speedo is insulated from the speedo.....
And in this photo you can see the black terminal 15 key controlled 12v feed.... yeah, it's there, look closer.......
My simple brain is nearing melt down!
Then it occurred to me as I studied the circuit path diagram....... ground wires feed the relay and the switch.
Why?
The lights are grounded on their own and provide the ground needed to complete the circuit.
What if.......???????????
What if that wire that feeds the dash light from the flasher relay 49a /KBL also provides the ground???
I rewired my little test set up using my three prong flasher from my Vanagon. (My OG four wire isn't working)
I clipped my test light onto +12v and turned on the flasher.
I touched the test probe to 49a while the lights I rigged up were flashing and guess what?
When the turn signal bulbs were lit, the test probe was off, when the signal bulbs were off, the test probe lit!
So my guess is CORRECT!!!! That wire from the KBL terminal (or in my three prong set up terminal 49a) provides an intermittant ground.
YES!!!!!
To verify I wired in another bulb holder to act as the dash indicator.
It all worked as it should!
Another day older and just a tiny bit smarter. Saved some grey matter from deteriorating today.
I love to understand how things work.
It is a very good day....
Enjoy!
Dave
_________________
Stop Dead Photo Links how to post photos
Ghia
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=392473
Vanagon
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6315537#6315537
Beetle
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=482968&highlight=74+super+vert |
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kiwighia68
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Joined: October 20, 2013
Posts: 2875
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
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| Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 10:33 am Post subject: Re: How do your 1969 Turn Signals work? |
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How sweet is the path to discovery!
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Festina lente - hasten slowly
1968 Ghia named Emiko
Resto completed Dec 2015 |
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c21darrel
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Joined: January 22, 2009
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Location: San Dimas
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kiwighia68
Samba Member
Joined: October 20, 2013
Posts: 2875
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
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| Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 11:40 am Post subject: Re: How do your 1969 Turn Signals work? |
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| c21darrel wrote: |
Thanks dave. I aspire to understand, maybe even learn something. Electrical reminds me of freshman algebra, I was lost there after the first week too. If i read your post 3 times it even begins to make sense. Im at 15%. :oops:
I guess a basic understanding of electrical symbols would help. |
You should have worked harder at the algebra, Daryl, and you would have been able to convert miles to klimetres and vice versa more readily.
Just saying.
_________________
Festina lente - hasten slowly
1968 Ghia named Emiko
Resto completed Dec 2015 |
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c21darrel
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Location: San Dimas
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kiwighia68
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Joined: October 20, 2013
Posts: 2875
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
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| Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 1:03 pm Post subject: Re: How do your 1969 Turn Signals work? |
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| c21darrel wrote: |
^^Good memory Kiwi! :D
Algebra,
I took it in H.S.
I took it in Jr. College.
I took remedial courses twice at university in order to graduate. (I did graduate :shock: )
To this day, I can recall understanding 100% in class the first few weeks. Then I would fail to understand a concept and from that point on I was pretty much lost every single time. |
Ha-ha. I was like that with a subcomponent of maths called "analytical algebra". I was lost from day one. Perfect score on every other part, but zero for that one. My maths teacher was perplexed, but I knew the answer.
As to the subject of the physics of our turn signals - I think Dave has now worked out the theory while (you, I think) and I were satisfied merely to follow the wiring instructions. As my wife keeps telling me, "Don't ask why. Just do as I tell you."
_________________
Festina lente - hasten slowly
1968 Ghia named Emiko
Resto completed Dec 2015
Last edited by kiwighia68 on Thu Mar 15, 2018 8:04 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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jason_hamilton
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Joined: February 07, 2003
Posts: 1118
Location: Abbotsford, BC
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| Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 6:51 pm Post subject: Re: How do your 1969 Turn Signals work? |
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I confess - I took the easy route. In later cars a lot of the functions of the 9-pin relay were transferred from the flasher relay to the emergency switch. I've wired my '69 to be the same as a '71. The emergency switch knob looks the same and i can use any old three-prong flasher relay.
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Jason Hamilton
1969 Karmann Ghia coupe
@MiddleAgedHoon |
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djkeev
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Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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hazmatty3614
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Location: Wanaque, New Jersey
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| Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 5:06 am Post subject: Re: How do your 1969 Turn Signals work? |
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Wow.... I really appreciate a new understand of this system. I will continue to trouble shoot over the weekend.
Thanks again!!! |
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djkeev
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Posts: 32625
Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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