Author |
Message |
Zundfolge1432 Samba Member
Joined: June 13, 2004 Posts: 12468
|
Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 6:29 pm Post subject: Re: torque wrench needed |
|
|
Wow a kindred spirit that can recognize the advantage of using professional tooling rather than chinese dime store crap. Here’s a few pics of real tools with calibration stickers and the factory cases.
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
Sharp64 Samba Member
Joined: August 27, 2015 Posts: 5304 Location: Central Florida
|
Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 3:57 am Post subject: Re: torque wrench needed |
|
|
OMG! I just got tool shamed! I must run to a mod and cry like a little girl _________________ 1960 Indigo Blue Ragtop (Blue Barry)
1967 Ghia
1985 Westy Money Pit
“...some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned, or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn.” - Michael Caine |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Zundfolge1432 Samba Member
Joined: June 13, 2004 Posts: 12468
|
Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 5:34 am Post subject: Re: torque wrench needed |
|
|
Sharp64 wrote: |
OMG! I just got tool shamed! I must run to a mod and cry like a little girl |
You still bucking for promotion to hall monitor I see despite your denials. Dude it’s obvious. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
TDCTDI Samba Advocatus Diaboli
Joined: August 31, 2013 Posts: 12858 Location: North Carolina
|
Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 6:24 am Post subject: Re: torque wrench needed |
|
|
Zundfolge1432 wrote: |
Sharp64 wrote: |
OMG! I just got tool shamed! I must run to a mod and cry like a little girl |
You still bucking for promotion to hall monitor I see despite your denials. Dude it’s obvious. |
We all know that you're secretly vying for a Mod position ZF, you just don't want any competition. _________________ Everybody born before 1975 has a story, good, bad, or indifferent, about a VW.
GOFUNDYOURSELF, quit asking everyone to do it for you!
An air cooled VW will make you a hoarder.
Do something, anything, to your project every day, and you will eventually complete it.
Last edited by TDCTDI on Thu Mar 15, 2018 6:25 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Sharp64 Samba Member
Joined: August 27, 2015 Posts: 5304 Location: Central Florida
|
Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 6:25 am Post subject: Re: torque wrench needed |
|
|
Zundfolge1432 wrote: |
Sharp64 wrote: |
OMG! I just got tool shamed! I must run to a mod and cry like a little girl |
You still bucking for promotion to hall monitor I see despite your denials. Dude it’s obvious. |
Still nope! I would be a really poor hall monitor as I'd be easily bought, let all my friends skate by without a second thought and promote my interests every chance I had..... oh wait...
To be on topic and not get locked, I will say that I think a good rule of thumb is this.. If you are planning to do this long term and can afford mid or higher end tools, get them or as suggested look for decent used ones at a garage sale. Of course doing so requires you educate yourself as to what constitutes "good quality". However, if you are on a budget and only plan to use these a few time a year, cheap Chinese toys as ZF calls them will work in a pinch until you can afford to invest in higher end tools. My more expensive one that I have was still under $100 and the only time I use it is to tighten my lugnuts and once to torque a gland nut. Other than that, it sits in its case set to the lowest setting. And I've had it almost 2 years now.
I use the cheaper HF ones more often and I probably should step up at some point and buy a nicer one. _________________ 1960 Indigo Blue Ragtop (Blue Barry)
1967 Ghia
1985 Westy Money Pit
“...some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned, or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn.” - Michael Caine
Last edited by Sharp64 on Thu Mar 15, 2018 6:31 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
Back to top |
|
|
busman78 Samba Member
Joined: August 17, 2004 Posts: 4524 Location: Oklahoma City, OK
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
Da TOW'D Samba Member
Joined: December 25, 2005 Posts: 1321 Location: Bella Coma Canada
|
Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 10:04 am Post subject: Re: torque wrench needed |
|
|
I've got 3 W&B torque wrenches 3/8" +1/2" +1" drive
dual signal the pin pops out you can see and hear the pin when the torque is reached
The 3/8" drive excellent for accurate light torque applications
the 1/2" drive I have a Snap On ratcheting adapter on it and use just about every day
On the 1" I have a 3/4" reducer- great for axle nuts and flywheel gland nuts
I like them a lot
cheers
Hank _________________ '57 type 1 Blackberry
'58 SC Ruf
'62 type 3 Notch
'92 Eurovan Willy DD
and NUTS |
|
Back to top |
|
|
busman78 Samba Member
Joined: August 17, 2004 Posts: 4524 Location: Oklahoma City, OK
|
Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 10:55 am Post subject: Re: torque wrench needed |
|
|
I am jealous of your W&B's, course if I run into one priced disgustingly low I will bring it home with me, even with six torque wrenches now there is always room for something odd to joint the pack |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Da TOW'D Samba Member
Joined: December 25, 2005 Posts: 1321 Location: Bella Coma Canada
|
Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 3:39 pm Post subject: Re: torque wrench needed |
|
|
Like Spring around here today
3/8" goes from 0-180 inch pounds 20nm.
1/2" 20-220 ft. lbs.
I" 200 ft.l bs to 750 ft. lbs.
handy when you need them
Hank _________________ '57 type 1 Blackberry
'58 SC Ruf
'62 type 3 Notch
'92 Eurovan Willy DD
and NUTS |
|
Back to top |
|
|
pyrOman Fire Master
Joined: July 21, 2003 Posts: 12409 Location: Over 2002 posts deleted!
|
Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2018 7:14 am Post subject: Re: torque wrench needed |
|
|
FWIW & FYI... This I've learned and known for ages since precision instrument calibration is what I do for a living, though only for another 7 days and I'm done with that!
As a general rule torque wrenches are not deemed "accurate" in the first 15% to 20% of their range, whatever range that'd be. Some are good from end to end but it is not recommended to say torque something at 10lb-ft using a 100lb-ft wrench.
In my over 30 years experience the "preferred" type is the dial or beam types. They are most accurate in that you will bring it right up to the desired torque since you are looking at the scale as you go. Using the "click" type is okay but unless you are very good on the "feel", you will more often than not over torque past the desired setting. Reason being that as you are pulling on it once it clicks you are still pulling just a bit more! I often have the end users here at work try it for themselves using my torque tester and they are usually quite surprised to see this.
Now on that note, preferring the dial is okay for mostly lower torque settings since when applying higher torque it is often not practical to read a dial, as has been mentioned already.
Finally, the digitals are really the best since not only can you read it as you go but most have settings with "alarms" when you reach the setting thus giving you the "feel" needed. I have one that even has a yellow light when getting closer and then a red light when the point is reached.
Note: Beam types, which include digitals, always return to zero when not in use. If you were to store it at say half the load, it would stress the beam and eventually take a "set" or "bend". For the same reason it is why it's recommended to set the "click" types back to its lowest setting before storing, since the torqueing "element" is a precision spring and reacts the same as a beam does under stress for a long period of time.
Hope any of that crap helps some.
_________________ Some people are so busy being clever they don't have time enough to be wise. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
calvinater Samba Member
Joined: September 06, 2014 Posts: 3331 Location: 802 The Pointless Forrest
|
Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2018 7:52 am Post subject: Re: torque wrench needed |
|
|
nice setup _________________ "Albatross"! |
|
Back to top |
|
|
TDCTDI Samba Advocatus Diaboli
Joined: August 31, 2013 Posts: 12858 Location: North Carolina
|
Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2018 7:59 am Post subject: Re: torque wrench needed |
|
|
Da TOW'D wrote: |
Like Spring around here today
3/8" goes from 0-180 inch pounds 20nm.
1/2" 20-220 ft. lbs.
I" 200 ft.l bs to 750 ft. lbs.
handy when you need them
Hank |
I know that Canada gets a lot of ice & snow, but why do you need to test the torque on the wiper arms? _________________ Everybody born before 1975 has a story, good, bad, or indifferent, about a VW.
GOFUNDYOURSELF, quit asking everyone to do it for you!
An air cooled VW will make you a hoarder.
Do something, anything, to your project every day, and you will eventually complete it. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Da TOW'D Samba Member
Joined: December 25, 2005 Posts: 1321 Location: Bella Coma Canada
|
Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2018 8:52 am Post subject: Re: torque wrench needed |
|
|
the big bruiser is leaning on the lip of the roof
Hank _________________ '57 type 1 Blackberry
'58 SC Ruf
'62 type 3 Notch
'92 Eurovan Willy DD
and NUTS |
|
Back to top |
|
|
busman78 Samba Member
Joined: August 17, 2004 Posts: 4524 Location: Oklahoma City, OK
|
Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2018 10:24 am Post subject: Re: torque wrench needed |
|
|
Just showing off that his "TORQUE WRENCH" is bigger than your "torque wrench" |
|
Back to top |
|
|
TDCTDI Samba Advocatus Diaboli
Joined: August 31, 2013 Posts: 12858 Location: North Carolina
|
Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2018 12:22 pm Post subject: Re: torque wrench needed |
|
|
busman78 wrote: |
Just showing off that his "TORQUE WRENCH" is bigger than your "torque wrench" |
As long as it still works when you need it to...
_________________ Everybody born before 1975 has a story, good, bad, or indifferent, about a VW.
GOFUNDYOURSELF, quit asking everyone to do it for you!
An air cooled VW will make you a hoarder.
Do something, anything, to your project every day, and you will eventually complete it. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
pyrOman Fire Master
Joined: July 21, 2003 Posts: 12409 Location: Over 2002 posts deleted!
|
Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2018 1:07 pm Post subject: Re: torque wrench needed |
|
|
TDCTDI wrote: |
busman78 wrote: |
Just showing off that his "TORQUE WRENCH" is bigger than your "torque wrench" |
As long as it still works when you need it to...
|
Not bragging but mine's a 5 foot long 600 Lb-Ft strap-on, er, Snap-On! _________________ Some people are so busy being clever they don't have time enough to be wise. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21520 Location: Oklahoma City
|
Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 10:57 am Post subject: Re: torque wrench needed |
|
|
Zundfolge1432 wrote: |
Wow a kindred spirit that can recognize the advantage of using professional tooling rather than chinese dime store crap. Here’s a few pics of real tools with calibration stickers and the factory cases.
|
Don't laugh..... I am a torque wrench pig myself as well....but guess what....many, many, MANY formal torque wrench comparison tests have actually found that damn Harbor Freight "Pittsburgh" brand of torque wrench to be JUST as accurate ...and even more accurate ...than some of the more expensive brands (not the very professional ones).
I am notsuggesting buying cheap Chinese torque wrenches....but just saying...if you need a reasonable torque wrench for short term use....there is no reason being on a tight budget should stop you.
Here is just one of the numerous tests that included the HF wrench over the years.
http://www.hotrod.com/articles/ccrp-1304-torque-wrench-testing/
Here is my newish inch pound torque wrench for bearing preload adjusting. I love this wrench!
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=670414&highlight=seekonk
Now...that being said...the Harbor Freight wrench has POS build quality and will not STAY accurate very long.
And....from what I have seen it wears enough at the beam pivot and the gears and handle bushing.... that its a little finicky to recalibrate accurately.
But...at an average cost of $30-40 per direction for recalibration services for most torque tools....just use it for 3 months and throw it in the recycling cart and buy another one
I spent years with manufacturer whose product required the use of a torque wrench all day, every day. We bought and sold torque wrenches. About 1500-2000 per year on average. We were constantly testing as many brands of mid-level torque wrench as we could.
All of ours were custom made to our specs by Proto (for a few years) and then later Sturtevant-Richmont. We made ours to a max 75 ft, lbs range (precisely so that they would not get used on much else than this product) and they had a finer gear tooth pattern with a double pawl and specially hardened teeth. This is because a typical mid-sized client shop using this product used their wrench for an average of about 1200 torque cycles per day at 55 ft lbs.
And that being said....
Many manufacturers quote a re-calibration interval of 10,000 clicks. Now....being that no one actually counts their clicks....the torque wrench manufactuers have worked this out to an average number of weeks/months for different types of businesses....engine builders, tire shops, assembly lines etc.
Some industrial assembly lines have to recalibrate WEEKLY. Others like most tire shops...need calibration MONTHLY.
In our clients case....the process was not that sensitive. Your torque could wdrop down to a minimum of 45 ft lbs with no slippage issues and increase up to maximum of 65 ft lbs with no part breakage issues...55 ft lbs being the safe average.
Through studies we did ....this worked out for a small shop of about 400-600 cycles per day of about 9-12 months before recalibration was needed....and a medium shop six months...and a large shop 3 months.
The difference being that yes...click cycles will weaken the spring causing the need for recalibration....but not that much that fast. For instance...our Sturtevant and Proto torque wrenches really only lost about 2-4 flt lbs in 600-800 cycle a day shop over 6 months.
Thats a safety issue in a tire shop...and a failure issue in an engine assembly line. Not a big deal for what we were doing.
What we found...and so has EVERY torque wrench manufacturer in the world...that causes the most wrench variation and rapid need for recalibration....is leaving the dial on click type wrenches...turned up to a high torque setting. It cuts the calibration life in HALF.
To preserve the calibration of your torque wrench...you should turn the setting back down to around 10 ft. pounds when you are done using it.
We found during testing that a torque wrench set at 55 ft lbs....even when brand new with "0" cycles on it at all.....can lose 10 ft lbs of calibration within 4-6 months.
Ray |
|
Back to top |
|
|
gt1953 Samba Member
Joined: May 08, 2002 Posts: 13848 Location: White Mountains Arizona
|
Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 11:10 am Post subject: Re: torque wrench needed |
|
|
Ever since I obtained the inch pound torque wrench, my leaks at the oil drips drain area have subsided. I never tightened them enough. _________________ Volkswagen: We tune what we drive.
Numbers Matching VW's are getting harder to find. Source out the most Stock vehicle and keep that way. You will be glad you did.
72 type 1
72 Squareback
({59 Euro bug, 62, 63, 67, 68, 69, 73 type ones 68 & 69 type two, 68 Ghia all sold}) |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Cusser Samba Member
Joined: October 02, 2006 Posts: 31379 Location: Hot Arizona
|
Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 12:37 pm Post subject: Re: torque wrench needed |
|
|
raygreenwood wrote: |
....many, many, MANY formal torque wrench comparison tests have actually found that damn Harbor Freight "Pittsburgh" brand of torque wrench to be JUST as accurate ...and even more accurate ...than some of the more expensive brands (not the very professional ones).
I am notsuggesting buying cheap Chinese torque wrenches....but just saying...if you need a reasonable torque wrench for short term use....there is no reason being on a tight budget should stop you.
Here is just one of the numerous tests that included the HF wrench over the years.
http://www.hotrod.com/articles/ccrp-1304-torque-wrench-testing/
|
I actually have FOUR HF click type torque wrenches: 1/2 drive, two of 3/8 drive (keep one in my convertible trunk), and one of 1/4 drive.
gt1953 wrote: |
Ever since I obtained the inch pound torque wrench, my leaks at the oil drips drain area have subsided. I never tightened them enough. |
Using the HF torque wrench, I found that I hadn't torqued my #2 spark plug insert/spark plug enough. _________________ 1970 VW (owned since 1972) and 1971 VW Convertible (owned since 1976), second owner of each. The '71 now has the 1835 engine, swapped from the '70. Second owner of each. 1988 Mazda B2200 truck, 1998 Frontier, 2014 Yukon, 2004 Frontier King Cab. All manual transmission except for the Yukon. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335294 http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335297 |
|
Back to top |
|
|
crankbait09 Samba Member
Joined: October 10, 2016 Posts: 1304 Location: Cincinnati, Ohio
|
Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 6:43 am Post subject: Re: torque wrench needed |
|
|
when it comes to the right size ft lb torque wrench, what is the lowest setting you have had to use?
In the Muir book it mentions needing a wrench that measures 0-250. But how close to zero do you actually find yourself going? |
|
Back to top |
|
|
|