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TheLills.com
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Joined: January 04, 2018
Posts: 92
Location: Traveling
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 Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2018 1:08 pm Post subject: Re: Spark Plugs Video + How long should they last?? |
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Wildthings - Extended driving at high altitudes certainly calls for a timing adjustment. We're excited to get into it! The carburetor is a single empi progressive. We'll have to see what size jets are currently in there and what sizes to upgrade with. Thanks for the input!
telford dorr - The spark plug thread chasing tool is another great tip, thank you for that!
- Peace & Love
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1978 VW Westfalia |
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21513
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2018 1:19 pm Post subject: Re: Spark Plugs Video + How long should they last?? |
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| telford dorr wrote: |
| I HIGHLY RECOMMEND using a spark plug thread chasing tool (with a little grease on it) to clean the deposits out of the threads, specifically at the combustion chamber end of the spark plug hole. Otherwise, they can build up, and lead to galling when you go to remove the plug. My rule of thumb: if a plug start seizing when being removed, screw it back in and leave it until it's time to pull the head. |
This exact point ....is why I am really careful what people do when they rebuild heads.
If they do a clean up cut on the recess boss around the spark plug....they have screwed up. It leaves extended thread outside of the spark plug boss to fill up with carbon.
Also any material or porting that shortens the spark plug thread does the same thing.
Using a Timesert.....must be done very carefully when cutting the outer countersink for the insert. It needs to be done just enough that the insert sits flush....and the insert may need to be shortened to fit the head threads....or it will not lock on the inner end. At the same time....if any spark plug threads protrude into the chamber.....that insert will twist right out when those threads fill up with carbon. Ray |
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Abscate
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Joined: October 05, 2014
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Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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| Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2018 2:33 pm Post subject: Re: Spark Plugs Video + How long should they last?? |
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The new spark plugs are better and last longer, not debatable...
But...
I'm not a fan.
I run copper Bosch on all my cars for the simple reason that that means they get changed out every 2 years minimum. I just don't think leaving a steel plug in an Al head for 7 years is a good idea.
I have regapped Cu plugs and gotten 45k out of them.
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
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Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2018 5:11 pm Post subject: Re: Spark Plugs Video + How long should they last?? |
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| Abscate wrote: |
The new spark plugs are better and last longer, not debatable...
But...
I'm not a fan.
I run copper Bosch on all my cars for the simple reason that that means they get changed out every 2 years minimum. I just don't think leaving a steel plug in an Al head for 7 years is a good idea.
I have regapped Cu plugs and gotten 45k out of them. |
New spark plugs?.....meaning iridium and double platinum?.
To be precise.....they are not "built" better.....they are built the exactly the same. They simply have better electrode metals that wear VERY slowly.....compared to our "classic" nickel copper or nickel ytrium electrodes.
But I totally agree.....sure you can get 45k miles out of a copper plug....but typically after about two re-gappings.....yep....about two years depending on your miles.....you start running into electrode height above ceramic issues, electrode rounding and the ground electrode starts getting to be a pretty steep angle. All of this can affect spark quality.
Its just not worth it to keep twiddling with them. Just replace them.
On a stock type 4 of any type....there is really no benefit to the extreme mileage iridiums. Yeah they will last for ages....but....you cannot safely re-gap them.....and they do wear. And...if your thread reach is not perfect and you have exposed threads in the combustion chamber.....they WILL fill with carbon after leaving them in for huge mileage and destroy the threads when you pull them out.
And at $12-16 a plug......just not worth it unless you have what modern cars have....dedicated 20-30k plus voltage to each plug.....high compression with incredibly lean burn fuel mixtures.....and need what modern cars need.....extremely even and equal potential gaps to use as a sensor.
Yes....oddly enough....my 2012 Golf came with copper plugs....even though the dealer swore it should have come with iridium plugs.....until they looked up the engine # and VIN....and realized that....yep....that particular package came with a really odd copper plug.
And yep....they have to be gapped (if you do not replace them) at about 30-40k miles or it will start running like crap. The gap on copper plugs with modern high voltage ignition will wear by about .020" in 30k miles. The ion sensing function will keep increasing voltage until it smokes a coil.
I "thought" it had iridiums in it. Ignored them until about 45k miles.....noticed the mileage dropping and the wiring plugs on two coils started to melt from the excess coil heat.
Dropped in new plugs....everything perfect. The dealer noted that we "could" drop on iridiums and likely not need to change them until 120k......but.....that it would run oddly for about 1000 miles. It has a self learning ecu feature. It will run strange when moving to a new plug.....  ....its just as happy with coppers and regular maintenance.
Ray |
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Wildthings
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| Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2018 5:46 pm Post subject: Re: Spark Plugs Video + How long should they last?? |
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| The W7CCO plugs that were OEM for 1.9 and 2.1L Waterboxer Vanagons looked like you just took them out of the box at 80K. The gap was still perfect and the edges of the center electrode still sharp. When replaced with standard copper core W7CO plugs, the plugs were ugly at 12K miles and non functionaly by 18K. Don't really know what the difference in the construction was, but few places stocked the W7CCO so they needed to be ordered if you wanted to run them. I eventually bought up a bunch of old stock off of eBay, Amazon, and The Samba classifieds. |
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
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Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2018 7:07 pm Post subject: Re: Spark Plugs Video + How long should they last?? |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| The W7CCO plugs that were OEM for 1.9 and 2.1L Waterboxer Vanagons looked like you just took them out of the box at 80K. The gap was still perfect and the edges of the center electrode still sharp. When replaced with standard copper core W7CO plugs, the plugs were ugly at 12K miles and non functionaly by 18K. Don't really know what the difference in the construction was, but few places stocked the W7CCO so they needed to be ordered if you wanted to run them. I eventually bought up a bunch of old stock off of eBay, Amazon, and The Samba classifieds. |
That interesting!......and I do not know what to make of it either. In the Bosch chart.....a "CC0".....the "C" means copper, the 2nd "C" means 19mm reach and the "0" denotes....."deviates from basic version". It does not say how.
But....some of the WBX....used the 55kv coil assembly with hall effect pick up? I am wondering if they used an internal air gap....like the X versions of NGK. This helps prevent cap, rotor and electrode carbonizing at high voltage. Ray |
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TheLills.com
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| Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 1:58 pm Post subject: Re: Spark Plugs Video + How long should they last?? |
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We wanted to mention that we have a unique feature on our bus: a cylinder temperature gauge that comes from our #3 cylinder head (it attaches to the spark plug) and sits under the steering wheel. It definitely gives some peace of mind while traveling on the road 
Here are a few pics of the temperature gauge and connecting it to the new spark plug:
TEMPERATURE GAUGE
OLD SPARK PLUG
NEW SPARK PLUG
See the full post and installation pointers on our website:
http://thelills.com/how-to-change-spark-plugs-on-a-1978-vw-bus/
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Brian
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Joined: May 28, 2012
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| Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 2:28 pm Post subject: Re: Spark Plugs Video + How long should they last?? |
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| Sometimes, the gasket on a new spark plug won’t come off (without damaging it), so we snip the ring connector and fit it around the plug, under the new gasket. |
Explain this one a little more, you wallowed out the ring terminal to fit around the spark plug crush washer?
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TheLills.com
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Posts: 92
Location: Traveling
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| Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 3:28 pm Post subject: Re: Spark Plugs Video + How long should they last?? |
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The crush washer on the old spark plug is easy to unthread, which makes removing the ring terminal from the temp gauge easy without destroying it.
We find, the crush washer or gasket on a new spark plug however, is almost impossible to remove, without damaging it or the threads on the new plug, so we cleanly snip the ring terminal, bend and situate it under the new crush washer and bring the ends as close together as possible.
Threading the new spark plug to the specified torque will set the crush washer and hold the terminal in place, sending a reliable temperature to the gauge in the cabin.
-Peace & Love
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Wildthings
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| Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 3:38 pm Post subject: Re: Spark Plugs Video + How long should they last?? |
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| You may get some hot gases leaking up the threads and then out through your gap in the ring. This may cause the temperatures read by your gauge to be higher than they should be. |
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Brian
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telford dorr
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| Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 5:17 pm Post subject: Re: Spark Plugs Video + How long should they last?? |
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I am told (example) that the correct plugs used on VW's have a nickel plating on the threads. The nickel plating is sacrificial, which is to say, it fails when the plug is removed, and acts as a kind of lubricant, helping to keep the plug from seizing in the head. This plating works properly once. After that, the probability of seizing increases greatly. As such, cleaning and reusing the plug isn't recommended.
Has anybody heard of this?
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More VW electrical at http://telforddorr.com/ (available 9am to 9pm PST) |
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TheLills.com
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| Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 5:38 pm Post subject: Re: Spark Plugs Video + How long should they last?? |
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Wildthings & Brian - Thanks for the info and link! We have heard about some gauges reading a higher temp and being inaccurate. Personally, we've had a great experience with ours and its primary purpose is to be a safeguard.
telford dorr - The nickel plating sounds interesting. We have not heard of that before, thanks for posting!
- Peace & Love
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busdaddy
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| Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 5:38 pm Post subject: Re: Spark Plugs Video + How long should they last?? |
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First I've heard of that, sounds like a way to sell more plugs. It makes sense in a world without Neverseez though 
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Wildthings
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| Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 5:44 pm Post subject: Re: Spark Plugs Video + How long should they last?? |
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| telford dorr wrote: |
I am told (example) that the correct plugs used on VW's have a nickel plating on the threads. The nickel plating is sacrificial, which is to say, it fails when the plug is removed, and acts as a kind of lubricant, helping to keep the plug from seizing in the head. This plating works properly once. After that, the probability of seizing increases greatly. As such, cleaning and reusing the plug isn't recommended.
Has anybody heard of this? |
I read it on some companies website a while back. Don't remember whose, maybe Bosch, maybe NGK, maybe other? I think I was looking for info to prove or disprove Jake's claim that some types of never seize will cause a misfire. |
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busdaddy
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| Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 6:03 pm Post subject: Re: Spark Plugs Video + How long should they last?? |
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Any neverseez will cause a misfire if you slobber it on thick enough, especially if you fingerprint up the insulator in the process, a little tiny smear just on the threads is all it needs.
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raygreenwood
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| Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 6:35 pm Post subject: Re: Spark Plugs Video + How long should they last?? |
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| telford dorr wrote: |
I am told (example) that the correct plugs used on VW's have a nickel plating on the threads. The nickel plating is sacrificial, which is to say, it fails when the plug is removed, and acts as a kind of lubricant, helping to keep the plug from seizing in the head. This plating works properly once. After that, the probability of seizing increases greatly. As such, cleaning and reusing the plug isn't recommended.
Has anybody heard of this? |
Not quite true.
Nickel is NOT electrolytically sacrifical on ferrous metals. Its the other way around.
If you have a crack or chip in nickel plate on cast iron or steel....the ferrous metal will corrode....and pit....in sacrifice to the nickel.
The nickel on Bosch and NGK plugs is NOT electroplated nickel. Its "electroless E-nickel".
It plated on Far, far, far more evenly than electroplate....and faster and requires no plating electrode connection. Just precise chemistry and temperature at a little over 200°F and circulation and filtration....and they litterally do them by the drum.
And....then its heated in a drying oven to about 700°F.....which increase the hardness of the nickel plate to about 70 rockwell.
So.....There should be NO chipping or wear of the nickel threads on removal or insertion....and certainly not,against aluminum.
The nickel plate is a HUGE heat and electrical conductor....and its very hard....and extremely SMOOTH in surface profile without the need for polishing. The key to this.....is that there is NO die or machine cut thread on the planet that is a smooth as a plated thread.....and there is no electroplated coating that is as uniform im thickness as an electroless plated plated coating.
Electroless plating is what precsion orifices like fuel iniectors are plated with.
Also....along the lines of what you were REALLY thinking of.....is that nickel has a similar valance potential as stainless steel.....so it will not react galvanically with aluminum or ferrous metals. Its why they use nickel.
But...it can still gall in aluminum. Ray
Last edited by raygreenwood on Fri Mar 23, 2018 9:01 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Wildthings
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| Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 8:11 pm Post subject: Re: Spark Plugs Video + How long should they last?? |
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| busdaddy wrote: |
| Any neverseez will cause a misfire if you slobber it on thick enough, especially if you fingerprint up the insulator in the process, a little tiny smear just on the threads is all it needs. |
But that is not what Jake's claim was.  |
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raygreenwood
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| Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 8:58 pm Post subject: Re: Spark Plugs Video + How long should they last?? |
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Yep....jake said he noticed a difference in CHT readings with most anti-seize.....and is a why ctually Jake used dried out milk of magnesia. Its about 9% magnesium hydroxide and a few other goodies.
The gist being it was largely a micro powdered soft metal with decent conductivity. It works as an anti-seize without the introduction of the silica and oil of normal anti-seize.
The oil that is used in anti-seize.....like most oils....is actually dielctric....meaning a non-conducting insulator. Silica is also a non conductor....and a major ingredient in many anti-zeize compounds.
On modern cars that use ion sensing ignition systems (most have used it,for some time....and virtually all VAG vehicles do).....the use of almost anything on the plug threads will result in idle and misfire issues with lots of oddly timed yellow trouble code lights.
It only has to change the ground by a few milivolts to screw things up.
But....thats because of the combined ignition and fuel system sensitivity.
With our basic factory systems.....while having anti-seize DOES make SOME difference in both ground qualitt and heat transfer......and a digital CHT sensor "may" get some effect from it.....I havn't the basic factory points ignition having any issues with it.
However if you move up to a hall effect system with higher voltage ....which is millivolt sensitive ...you can see some issues. Ray |
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Clatter
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| Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 9:05 pm Post subject: Re: Spark Plugs Video + How long should they last?? |
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I have done Jake's trick of using Milk of Magnesia on plug threads for a few years with good results.
Another thing to consider WRT plug life is how well-tuned the motor is.
If you are running rich, choke during cold-starts, FI, etc.
This can have an effect on how long your plugs can last between cleanings/changes.
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