Disc vs drums, cost almost the same. What are your thoughts?

[joseluis17g]

Hi everybody!
I'm in the process of rebuilding a link pin beam that I had picked up earlier this week, and upon inspection the brakes are a bit busted, It's not a surprise since the beam was left outside for many years.
I'm making a list of all the things that I need to buy, I don't want to cheap out on the brakes so I was thinking of buying all new stuff, and It all adds up about the same of some of the disc conversion kits.
So...

1.- I've read in jeff hibbard's book about brake bias, he talks about interchanging tha brake cylinder to send more power to the rear... I'm worried that having disc up front would put the bias even worse than stocks

2.- I love the idea of not having to adjust the brakes, one less thing to worry about.

3.- I would be using my rail in the woods, and surly I will be crossing rivers and puddles, I read that disc are self cleaning and drums don't work great after the are wet.

4.- I have two sets of wheels so I could go 5x205 or 4x130 that's not a problem

I could do one of those CNC machined pedals with two reservoirs as I believe with those you could adjust the bias.

This will go into a sand rail, I will be putting as much weigth on the front as possible, hi lift jack, baterry maybe a small winch, all of that will go on the front, but I don't know if that is enough

I would like to hear what you guys think about this, maybe some input.

this is what I'm working on

_________________
86 Mexican baja bug
73 Porsche 911
82 Mercedes UNIMOG
83 Jeep CJ7

[DSTMULE]

Brakes on the front of a rail?? I think they might lock up at times.

[Multi69s]

[Stormin189]

I personally like drum brakes, they are alittle noisie when you get water or sand in them but are some things you can do to help the stuff evacuate out of them, they are alot lighter then the cb performance front disc kit, and they really are not all that high maintenance in my opinion, maybe service them every other year if that.

[joseluis17g]

[Dale M.]

Disks are so efficient it may introduce a lot of problems about control... IF you put disk all the way around get good proportioning control and use very little brakes on front.... You are going to put a brakes system designation for a 3000(+) pound car on a 1800 pound (+/-) car, the effect can be very dramatic (four wheel lockups)... If you insist on disks put them on rear only and use drums on front... Yes braking efficiency is important to a point where you can have to much.... Lock up brakes on dirt, and you are going to be like sliding on marbles and have no control...

Dale
_________________
“Fear The Government That Wants To Take Your Guns" - Thomas Jefferson.

"Kellison Sand Piper Roadster" For Street & Show.
"Joe Pody Sandrover" Buggy with 2180 for Autocross (Sold)
============================================================
All suggestions and advice are purely my own opinion. You are free to ignore them if you wish ...

[dustymojave]

I raced my buggy offroad for years and won a championship and have used it since it was retired, ALL using drum brakes. The fronts on mine are 1965 Type 1 Bug. The rears are 1962-67 VW Type 3 fastback/squareback drums. I used metallic shoes. Not much water though.

I've used drums on my Baja bugs for decades too. I have plenty of experience with those in water crossings and flooding. Metallic shoes are much better at dealing with water than standard shoes.

Yes disc brakes shed water better than drums. But disc brake kits that fit on stock link pin or ball joint spindles tend to be weak when used offroad. Not weak in braking force, but weak in terms of the hubs breaking from offroad use. Like cracking around the center, or stripping the splines out of the center, or cracking around studs, or stripping lug threads.

Many stock drums these days are weak in similar ways, especially those cast in China.

So I would say that it comes down to a personal choice for you.
_________________
Richard
Offroading VW based cars since 1965
Tech Inspection 1963 - 2012 SCCA/SCORE/HDRA/MORE/MDR +
Retired from building Bajas, Fiberglass Buggies and Rails in the Mojave Desert. Also Sprints & Midgets, Dry Lakes, Road Race cars. All types New and Vintage
SoCalBajas Member
Kicked Cancer's A$$...1st and 2nd round...Fight ain't over yet.

[BFB]

I was thumbing through a speedway catalog the other day and they have a brake valve that is designed to activate the rear brakes before the fronts, I thought that might be great for a rail that was running front brakes?

[Dale M.]

[BFB]

[dustymojave]

So...Why didn't you post a link to the specific valve you're talking about before you go slinging crap around?

I looked for it the other day after you posted your 1st comment about it, and I didn't run across any that the text indicated would apply rear brakes before front.
_________________
Richard
Offroading VW based cars since 1965
Tech Inspection 1963 - 2012 SCCA/SCORE/HDRA/MORE/MDR +
Retired from building Bajas, Fiberglass Buggies and Rails in the Mojave Desert. Also Sprints & Midgets, Dry Lakes, Road Race cars. All types New and Vintage
SoCalBajas Member
Kicked Cancer's A$$...1st and 2nd round...Fight ain't over yet.

[Q-Dog]

It is called a "hold off valve" and it does apply rear brakes before fronts. I saw this on the Speedway web site recently.
_________________
Brian

'69 Dune Buggy
'69 Beetle Convertible
'70 Beetle

[dustymojave]

So what is referred to is:
https://www.speedwaymotors.com/Brake-Metering-Hold-Off-Valve,8904.html

I found it by searching the Speedway site using the term provided by Q-Dog.

The valve makes some sense for a car to be used on dirt or other questionable surfaces.

But if the front wheels lock up before the rears, it probably needs some adjustment of braking balance front to rear.
_________________
Richard
Offroading VW based cars since 1965
Tech Inspection 1963 - 2012 SCCA/SCORE/HDRA/MORE/MDR +
Retired from building Bajas, Fiberglass Buggies and Rails in the Mojave Desert. Also Sprints & Midgets, Dry Lakes, Road Race cars. All types New and Vintage
SoCalBajas Member
Kicked Cancer's A$$...1st and 2nd round...Fight ain't over yet.

[BFB]

here ya go, found it online..
https://www.speedwaymotors.com/Brake-Metering-Hold-Off-Valve,8904.html

[BFB]

[PhillipM]

To be honest if your brakes are like that you're much better off just adjusting the bias rather than trying a bandaid like that valve.

[dustymojave]

Phillip is right, as I said before.

To Mr Head...
"speedway catalog the other day and they have a brake valve that is designed to activate the rear brakes before the fronts"

Searching that came up with the Speedway Motors online catalog section on proportioning valves. NOT the specific valve. And there are a great many items in that category. Q-Dog found the item and provided at least the specific name of it instead of just some vague description that does NOT bring up the item described.

I've had lunch with Bob Smith, founder of Speedway Motors, but I don't keep a print catalog on my computer desk. There are these really handy online catalogs for most businesses these days that when used can provide an internet link to the item. Ya might wanna try it sometime and joint the 21st Century.

Dale wasn't earning your disrespect from his comment. The Speedway Motors catalog puts those valves in the brake proportioning valve category and that is really what they ARE. Not a typical proportioning valve, but that's still what it is. So you shouldn't flame him. Nor should you flame me for defending him. You made a good meaningful suggestion, but didn't follow through to pass on the info in a reasonable fashion. that's what earned my comment. You're just living up to your own User ID.

I DO frequent STF. Your suggestion that I go there says that maybe you've been kicked off there for being anti-social and don't want me here because you've come back over here after getting the boot over there.
_________________
Richard
Offroading VW based cars since 1965
Tech Inspection 1963 - 2012 SCCA/SCORE/HDRA/MORE/MDR +
Retired from building Bajas, Fiberglass Buggies and Rails in the Mojave Desert. Also Sprints & Midgets, Dry Lakes, Road Race cars. All types New and Vintage
SoCalBajas Member
Kicked Cancer's A$$...1st and 2nd round...Fight ain't over yet.

[BFB]

you sure do read a lot into sh*t dusty... instead of thinking that if u guy is on one buggy board he's probably on several others and knows as we all know STF stands more for sh*t talk forum than it does shop talk forum. but no, u over dramatize it and think i musta been kicked off??? brilliant deduction Watson! that absolutely makes more sense...
again, I commented on something I saw in a catalog which had no link to be able to post, and Dale assumed I was talking about something which I wasn't. I don't think Dale needs you to come to his rescue, he seems like a grown man to me. and as far as u trying to bash me for reading a paper catalog?? that's just childish , your just looking for dumb sh*t to try to start sh*t.
here's my guess, your one of the reasons that STF is a barren wasteland of a board these days, too many of us had to deal with ppl like you merely because we posted something that wasn't up to your 21st century standards and so we quit posting or visiting the site, good job buddy keep up the good ol sh*t posting!

[Vanillagurilla]

You guys think to much, unless it's a sand rail or a baja with nothing up front disc brakes will be a nice upgrade. If they don't work better then the drums then get the disc front master cylinder, if it works too good then you can put in something like a bleed valve that just limits the pressure on that line but I don't thing you will have an over breaking problem with putting front disc.

[Dale M.]

richardcraineum..... Think you have worn out your welcome here and I don't see any of the attitude you claim exist on STF, and I have been on that site for years....... Actually there is quite a group of dedicated people over there that always have been helpful...

Think you need to go sit in time out box till you grow up and loses the attitude...

I think you owe Dusty an apology because he is correct and you failed miserable to support you claim about the brake biasing device by not posting link to that specific device intended for specific purpose in you initial comment...

Dale
_________________
“Fear The Government That Wants To Take Your Guns" - Thomas Jefferson.

"Kellison Sand Piper Roadster" For Street & Show.
"Joe Pody Sandrover" Buggy with 2180 for Autocross (Sold)
============================================================
All suggestions and advice are purely my own opinion. You are free to ignore them if you wish ...