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Who.Me? 
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Joined: July 14, 2014
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Location: UK (South)
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 Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 11:13 am Post subject: Flywheel too groovy? |
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I changed the flywheel oil seal a couple of years ago but it still drips, so I thought I'd change it again.
Before putting it back together this time, I checked the seal mating surface on the flywheel boss and it has two noticeable grooves that I can feel with my fingernails. They're quite pronounced.
Should I get this turned to take the grooves out or buy a new flywheel? This one is stamped VW.
If it's worth having it turned and I can find somewhere that can do it locally, what's the limit (minimum diameter of the boss)?
The engine is a 1600 dual port converted, to 12 Volts and mated to a big nut transmission.
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Andy
Looking for info on my truck's history. Are you from Campbell California or nearby. Do you recognise it? ... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=636786 |
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Eric&Barb
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Joined: September 19, 2004
Posts: 24764
Location: Olympia Wash Rinse & Repeat
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| Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 11:47 am Post subject: Re: Flywheel too groovy? |
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You can not have it turned without removing too much material. You could have that area plated/ground back down or some of the cutting edge machine shops are now micro welding in new material and then machining down the area back to original specs for stuff like B-29 engine parts, or maybe have it brazed with some brass rod or silver solder?
25-36 HP engines have same problem and the SKF Speedi-Sleeve was developed for such. Might be a bigger version of that for 40 HP thru 1600 FWs. If you find such, please update us all about it!!
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=590141&highlight=flywheel+sleeve
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Who.Me?
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Joined: July 14, 2014
Posts: 2211
Location: UK (South)
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| Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 1:11 pm Post subject: Re: Flywheel too groovy? |
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| Eric&Barb wrote: |
You can not have it turned without removing too much material. You could have that area plated/ground back down or some of the cutting edge machine shops are now micro welding in new material and then machining down the area back to original specs for stuff like B-29 engine parts, or maybe have it brazed with some brass rod or silver solder?
25-36 HP engines have same problem and the SKF Speedi-Sleeve was developed for such. Might be a bigger version of that for 40 HP thru 1600 FWs. If you find such, please update us all about it!!
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=590141&highlight=flywheel+sleeve |
Thanks Eric. Did some googling about speedi-sleeves. It says to measure the ungrooved shaft in three places and take the average. Mine is 69.56mm The speedi-sleeve jumps from 67.81 to 69.85mm.
I think I'll look up some discount codes and get a new flywheel. I was amazed that the rubber oil seal could cut a groove in the steel.
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Andy
Looking for info on my truck's history. Are you from Campbell California or nearby. Do you recognise it? ... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=636786 |
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Eric&Barb
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Joined: September 19, 2004
Posts: 24764
Location: Olympia Wash Rinse & Repeat
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| Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 2:10 pm Post subject: Re: Flywheel too groovy? |
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Glad to help! Too bad about the speedi-sleeves.  Was hoping that was an option.
Same groove gets worn into the rear axle spacers, the axle seals inner lips ride on, causing gear oil leaks. Just a matter of so many miles on parts.
Heck with enough time blown air itself will work the hardest rock down.
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Eric&Barb
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Joined: September 19, 2004
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Location: Olympia Wash Rinse & Repeat
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| Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 2:22 pm Post subject: Re: Flywheel too groovy? |
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Know it is probably in not an affordable option now, but here is an interesting video about the new technology coming out to repair parts that are no longer commonly found in usable shape. First three minutes cover this.
Link
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hazetguy
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Joined: April 06, 2001
Posts: 10773
Location: iT StiNgeD iTseLf tO dEAd
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| Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 3:25 pm Post subject: Re: Flywheel too groovy? |
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| Eric&Barb wrote: |
| You can not have it turned without removing too much material. |
this is inaccurate. somewhat.
you'd really have to remove a lot of material for that to happen. so much that you'd probably reduce the overall strength of that entire area on the flywheel which would render it useless.
the groove on the flywheel posted above does not look all that bad.
the seal has plenty of 'contraction' to it to make up for a smaller diameter on the flywheel. and you could always trim the seal spring a little to give it a bit more pressure if really extreme.
if the surface has a very deep groove or other damage it should be replaced, but i've had some pretty deep grooves cleaned up on some rarer flywheels with no issues.
i often have flywheels machined there with no detrimental effects on sealing.
this is one i had done recently, and after i had test fitted a seal, you can clearly see the sealing lip edge where the seal will ride, as well as where the 'second lip' was hitting the radius of the flywheel (arrow).
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Eric&Barb
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| Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 6:24 pm Post subject: Re: Flywheel too groovy? |
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Good to hear that has worked for you. Will have to give ir a try then. Would be interesting to get the inner diameter specs for the seal....
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mr. lang
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Posts: 308
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 4:32 am Post subject: Re: Flywheel too groovy? |
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| Who.Me? wrote: |
...
Mine is 69.56mm The speedi-sleeve jumps from 67.81 to 69.85mm.
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new would be 69.9mm ... 70.1mm, wear limit is 69.4mm
With 69.56mm it seems, that your flywheel was already machined before.
I'm not sure what would happen, when you fall below the wear limit.
Seems not that important to me if it does still seal.
Another budget fix would be to find another seal, that will end up riding on another position to cut a "new" groove
But if you want to do it right and don't want to pull the engine again ...
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Last edited by mr. lang on Wed Mar 21, 2018 1:23 am; edited 1 time in total |
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ryans65
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Location: Yulee FL
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| Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 5:49 am Post subject: Re: Flywheel too groovy? |
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| Throw that thing in the trash and buy a new one... You could turn it and risk turning it too small, you could use a speedy sleeve but it appears the diameters aren't going to work for you so you are just left with replacing it. I sometimes catch myself "failing in love" with junk parts and before I know it I have another shelf of crap that I'll "fix and use one day". Not a sermon, just a thought!! |
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Who.Me?
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Location: UK (South)
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| Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 6:36 am Post subject: Re: Flywheel too groovy? |
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I've used a discount code and bought a new flywheel.
In the grand scheme of things it wasn't too expensive at £60. It'll be worth it if it helps keep oil spots off the brick driveway and if I don't have to pull the engine again in the near future.
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Andy
Looking for info on my truck's history. Are you from Campbell California or nearby. Do you recognise it? ... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=636786 |
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Bruce Amacker
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Joined: December 26, 2007
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Location: Cleveland, Ohio
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| Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 7:06 am Post subject: Re: Flywheel too groovy? |
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| mr. lang wrote: |
| Who.Me? wrote: |
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Mine is 69.56mm The speedi-sleeve jumps from 67.81 to 69.85mm.
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new would be 60.9mm ... 70.1mm, wear limit is 69.4mm
But if you want to do it right and don't want to pull the engine again ... |
Typo- you mean 69.9?
It looks like a 99276 SpeediSleeve would work, 2.75" shaft diameter.
I'm interested in this too, I'll measure one at the shop today. Are you using a digital caliper or a mike?
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Last edited by Bruce Amacker on Wed Mar 21, 2018 6:43 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Eric&Barb
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Joined: September 19, 2004
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Location: Olympia Wash Rinse & Repeat
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| Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 9:18 am Post subject: Re: Flywheel too groovy? |
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| Who.Me? wrote: |
I've used a discount code and bought a new flywheel.
In the grand scheme of things it wasn't too expensive at £60. It'll be worth it if it helps keep oil spots off the brick driveway and if I don't have to pull the engine again in the near future. |
Have you added in a lower drain hole in the case seal bore?? That will help alot to reduce oil dripping at shut down.
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Who.Me?
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Location: UK (South)
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| Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 11:53 am Post subject: Re: Flywheel too groovy? |
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| Eric&Barb wrote: |
| Who.Me? wrote: |
I've used a discount code and bought a new flywheel.
In the grand scheme of things it wasn't too expensive at £60. It'll be worth it if it helps keep oil spots off the brick driveway and if I don't have to pull the engine again in the near future. |
Have you added in a lower drain hole in the case seal bore?? That will help alot to reduce oil dripping at shut down. |
I'd already set the seal home when I noticed the grooves on the flywheel boss. I used a wipe of Permatex high tack around the edge, so it's not coming out without damage to the seal.
Could a hole have been drilled without swarf ending up in the case? The engine is fully assembled, other than the flywheel.
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Andy
Looking for info on my truck's history. Are you from Campbell California or nearby. Do you recognise it? ... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=636786 |
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Who.Me?
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| Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 11:59 am Post subject: Re: Flywheel too groovy? |
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| Bruce Amacker wrote: |
| Are you using a digital caliper or a mike? |
I used a digital caliper/vernier gauge.
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Andy
Looking for info on my truck's history. Are you from Campbell California or nearby. Do you recognise it? ... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=636786 |
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Eric&Barb
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Location: Olympia Wash Rinse & Repeat
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| Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 12:09 pm Post subject: Re: Flywheel too groovy? |
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| Who.Me? wrote: |
Could a hole have been drilled without swarf ending up in the case? The engine is fully assembled, other than the flywheel. |
Well the oil strainer should keep most of that out and the reason that strainer is so high off the sump is to allow metal particles to be for the most part trapped on the sump plate. Even then the amount of magnesium/aluminum that will get inside will be minimal.
We use the modern oil filter pumps like CB Maxi 2 or VW of Mexico used for full filtration so have that added protection.
Helps to have an empty engine case to see that you miss the large case stud.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=3966500&highlight=#3966500
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hazetguy
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| Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 12:33 pm Post subject: Re: Flywheel too groovy? |
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| ryans65 wrote: |
| Throw that thing in the trash and buy a new one... You could turn it and risk turning it too small, |
seriously? read this post: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8720182#8720182
the flywheel in the first post does not look bad, AT ALL. could it use a clean up? probably, but i have seen, and used a lot worse looking ones in the past. i would rather spend the time and $$ to clean up a nice GERMAN flywheel than buy a ch-eye-na pos.
for some info for the thread, i just measured the following:
-o.d. of the sealing flange of a 1500 flywheel that I had the sealing surface machined/cleaned up/polished, whatever you want to call it: 69.9mm
-an unmachined, not cleaned up 1600 flywheel: 69.98mm
so i'm gessing that the factory new spec is somewhere about 70mm +/- some specified tolerance.
-an NOS, genuine VW flywheel seal, single lip, 113 105 245C, 70x90x10. the inner diameter of the sealing lip, not installed: 67mm
so when installed, the seal contracts nearly 3mm to put sealing pressure on the flywheel. i'm not smart enough to know the math to figure out the sealing pressure that puts on the flywheel.
there is no way you are going to take anywhere near 3mm off the the o.d. of the flywheel sealing surface to clean it up. i think the most i've ever had to have cleaned up was twenty thousandths or about .5mm, and again, with NO detrimental affect on the stock, factory seal doing its job.
here is a truly 'bad' 36hp flywheel, showing what i've found to be pretty normal, typical seal wear. the groove is tapered, and one can easily catch their fingernail on the lip. that being said, i've had many like this machined/polished, and again (sounding like a broken record here), with no sealing issues.
the ONLY reasons i'd not use a flywheel with issues in this area would be if there was rust pitting that went deeper than any reasonable machining would clean up, or if there were gouges, dents, or scratches on the sealing area caused by who knows what, errant chisels, hammers, dropping the flywheel, etc.
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thebucket: I invested in hoodride, now DBD won't return my call?
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Last edited by hazetguy on Tue Mar 20, 2018 12:40 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Eric&Barb
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Location: Olympia Wash Rinse & Repeat
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| Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 12:40 pm Post subject: Re: Flywheel too groovy? |
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| Who.Me? wrote: |
I'd already set the seal home when I noticed the grooves on the flywheel boss. I used a wipe of Permatex high tack around the edge, so it's not coming out without damage to the seal.
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Have driven well over 300,000 total ACVW miles (about 500,000 KM) without sealant. Just make sure that bore in the case is smooth of any scratches and corrosion. Have polished that area up with 400 grit wet/dry sandpaper to get rid of such when seldom needed. Then just oil the inner lip so it does not burn at start up, and oil outer diameter so it will slide on in without tearing the rubber outer edge.
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Who.Me?
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| Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 2:01 pm Post subject: Re: Flywheel too groovy? |
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Eric - I figured it wouldn't hurt to go with belt-and-braces this time. My Bentley manual said to use a sealant for the 36hp engine, so I figured it wouldn't hurt to do so on my 1600. I'll definitely oil the sealing lip and the new O-ring though. One other reason for suspecting the flywheel was that the seal I took out appeared undamaged (taking it out destroyed it though).
Hazetguy - Part of my decision was down to not knowing a local machine shop that would take on a small job like this and turn it round quickly. The engineering firms nearby who advertise deal with more specialist CNC work. When I've found ones who would take on small jobs (like making custom bushes for my gearbox nose cone) their turn around was quite slow as they fitted the job in between 'proper' jobs.
If mechanicing was more than a hobby I'd know local contacts I could use, but as it is I have to use whoever I can find. In this case, the simplest/quickest solution was to buy a new flywheel.
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Andy
Looking for info on my truck's history. Are you from Campbell California or nearby. Do you recognise it? ... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=636786 |
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Bruce Amacker
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Location: Cleveland, Ohio
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| Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 3:48 pm Post subject: Re: Flywheel too groovy? |
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I miked a 1600 FW today and come up with 2.7559" or 70mm on the seal surface. I'm all about originality and OEG parts and will always waste a bunch of time trying to save a German part rather than buying a new aftermarket part. If you have access to a lathe I'm sure taking a few thou off would be fine to get a nice surface, and if you don't, the seal sleeve is a 99276. If your FW is in great shape except the seal surface this would be the way to go for $24.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/99276-Shaft-Repair-Sleeve...mp;vxp=mtr
If you do use this, I suggest not hammering it on, I've had issues with this causing a ridge on the sleeve each time it stops. Use a press, vise, or set it on a floor jack and push it against the bottom of a large heavy object like a car or pickup truck. It only takes a couple hundred pounds to install these, I've put hundreds on in the past. They are the cat's ass when you have a yoke, crank, or hub with a big nasty groove. I use RTV for a lube/sealer when installing, you can either tear the flange off or leave it alone.
For future reference, download this and save it:
http://www.oit.edu/docs/default-source/facilities-...f?sfvrsn=2
PS I had thought about drilling a drain hole as I see the factory drain is about a third of the way up which would trap an ounce of oil. If the seal isn't perfect you're going to get an ounce on the floor every day. I'm glad to see someone else has already done it.......
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Build threads:
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mr. lang
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| Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 1:38 am Post subject: Re: Flywheel too groovy? |
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| Bruce Amacker wrote: |
| Typo- you mean 69.9? |
Ups, thanks Bruce, fixed it.
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