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Old Green Buggy Samba Member
Joined: March 19, 2018 Posts: 39
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Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 12:25 pm Post subject: Re: Maybe you can help me solve a mystery? |
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The wheels spin in neutral also when using the key to turn it over. Do you think the starter is hanging up? Thanks |
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Pruneman99 Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2012 Posts: 5013 Location: Oceanside
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Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 12:38 pm Post subject: Re: Maybe you can help me solve a mystery? |
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I'd guess something in the bell housing. It would be concerning enough for me to pull the engine if pulling the starter didn't reveal anything.
Or if you have an inspection camera you could pull the starter and push the camera in the starter hole to try to see if you can tell what's going on. |
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vwoldbug Samba Member
Joined: January 28, 2009 Posts: 1214 Location: Ohio
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Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 1:06 pm Post subject: Re: Maybe you can help me solve a mystery? |
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What crankshaft pulley does it have . If its aluminum I've seen them digging in to the engine case and into the sheet metal . |
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Cusser Samba Member
Joined: October 02, 2006 Posts: 31379 Location: Hot Arizona
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Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 1:23 pm Post subject: Re: Maybe you can help me solve a mystery? |
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Old Green Buggy wrote: |
I jacked up the rear end and it turns over perfectly. What do you think is jamming up? The pressure plate? Thanks. Now we are getting somewhere. Cool |
So is the above true? With engine cool, or with engine hot? Did you pull the spark plugs to try?
If the engine will not turn with wrench with the above, I think next step for me would be to pull a rocker arm off, and then try turning it. Then pull the other rocker off. This would help isolate whether the hang up is within the case/pistons or with a valve. _________________ 1970 VW (owned since 1972) and 1971 VW Convertible (owned since 1976), second owner of each. The '71 now has the 1835 engine, swapped from the '70. Second owner of each. 1988 Mazda B2200 truck, 1998 Frontier, 2014 Yukon, 2004 Frontier King Cab. All manual transmission except for the Yukon. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335294 http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335297 |
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Old Green Buggy Samba Member
Joined: March 19, 2018 Posts: 39
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Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 2:11 pm Post subject: Re: Maybe you can help me solve a mystery? |
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I adjusted the #1 and #2 valves. #1 exhaust valve was perfect. The rest were a lil loose. Then it started raining.
The engine is still hard to turn over. I ended up using the starter to bump it over and got it to tdc and bdc by hand. It’s just choosing when it wants to be free and when it wants to stick. Everything in the valve train looks good. No binding. Free movement. I think it’s somewhere behind the engine. I don’t think it’s internal. I’m thinking something like clutch, pressure plate or starter. Thanks |
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Bock Samba Member
Joined: September 18, 2004 Posts: 158 Location: Tennessee
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Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 4:28 pm Post subject: Re: Maybe you can help me solve a mystery? |
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Old Green Buggy wrote: |
The wheels spin in neutral also when using the key to turn it over. Do you think the starter is hanging up? Thanks |
The trans is still moving even in neutral so the wheels will move, but not like they are in gear. If you have driving force, then the trans is not in neutral. The starter not retracting isn't related to the wheels moving.
Have you removed the spark plugs, rockers, & starter and tried to turn the engine over yet? If those don't eliminate the issue and you think it's in the clutch/flywheel area then it's probably time to pull the engine out. |
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chrisflstf Samba Member
Joined: February 10, 2004 Posts: 3446 Location: San Diego
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Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 5:14 pm Post subject: Re: Maybe you can help me solve a mystery? |
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This makes no sense:
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The wheels don’t move when I’m turning it over in neutral or in gear by hand. The wheels do turn if I turn it over with the key in gear. Thanks
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Loose flywheel, broken crank, broken gland nut. Those all make noise. Maybe loose nut behind the steering wheel, check that |
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jeffrey8164 Samba Member
Joined: January 06, 2018 Posts: 3818 Location: Georgia
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Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 5:16 pm Post subject: Re: Maybe you can help me solve a mystery? |
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At face value there is no logical way to explain how one cannot turn the engine over with a wrench but the starter will turn it over just fine.
As I said before my little 1915 is doing the same sort of thing but I'm more inclined to think it is either cam thrust/cam gear loading and unloading or a wrist pin/rod bind.
I can turn past the bind with a 30mm socket on the crank pulley. It is a noticeable clunk and bind but with a little more force it turns past it until I back off the ratchet and it will clunk and bind again.
If a valve was hitting a piston the engine would be destroyed by now.
If the starter solenoid was sticking, the starter would be destroyed by now.
We may just be experiencing normal behavior.
I started a teardown today so I'll experiment some and report back. I'll make note of where in the degree wheel it happens as that may provide some clues. |
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chrisflstf Samba Member
Joined: February 10, 2004 Posts: 3446 Location: San Diego
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Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 7:01 pm Post subject: Re: Maybe you can help me solve a mystery? |
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You are feeling the spring and valve interaction as they move, open and close. And compression. Nothing else |
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[email protected] Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2002 Posts: 12785 Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
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Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 7:01 pm Post subject: Re: Maybe you can help me solve a mystery? |
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I've seen more than 1 engine where the #1 main bearing was so loose in the case, that the entire bearing and crank moved, and the crank cheek bound on the main bearing webs. It ran "OK", but it would bind when rotating by hand. _________________ It's just advice, do whatever you want with it!
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65calvw Samba Member
Joined: January 17, 2012 Posts: 19 Location: San Diego
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Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 7:06 pm Post subject: Re: Maybe you can help me solve a mystery? |
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Like Pruneman99, I vote excessive end play. |
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65calvw Samba Member
Joined: January 17, 2012 Posts: 19 Location: San Diego
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Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 7:07 pm Post subject: Re: Maybe you can help me solve a mystery? |
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Like Pruneman99, I vote excessive end play. |
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Old Green Buggy Samba Member
Joined: March 19, 2018 Posts: 39
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Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 6:06 am Post subject: Re: Maybe you can help me solve a mystery? |
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chrisflstf wrote: |
You are feeling the spring and valve interaction as they move, open and close. And compression. Nothing else |
Not at all. A child can turn one of these engines over by hand. I’m a man. Not one of these new school wussies. Carry on. |
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Old Green Buggy Samba Member
Joined: March 19, 2018 Posts: 39
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Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 6:08 am Post subject: Re: Maybe you can help me solve a mystery? |
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65calvw wrote: |
Like Pruneman99, I vote excessive end play. |
This engine has no excessive endplay. It is perfect. The crank doesn’t move. Thanks |
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Old Green Buggy Samba Member
Joined: March 19, 2018 Posts: 39
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Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 6:12 am Post subject: Re: Maybe you can help me solve a mystery? |
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[email protected] wrote: |
I've seen more than 1 engine where the #1 main bearing was so loose in the case, that the entire bearing and crank moved, and the crank cheek bound on the main bearing webs. It ran "OK", but it would bind when rotating by hand. |
I hope that’s not what’s happening. It runs great. It makes no noises. Sounds like a Swiss watch. That’s why this is so weird. It has no symptoms other than not wanting to turn over by hand. And it seems now that it chooses when it wants to be free. I spun it over by hand yesterday over and over. It was smooth as silk. Then, it got hard to turn again. Thanks |
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calvinater Samba Member
Joined: September 06, 2014 Posts: 3330 Location: 802 The Pointless Forrest
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Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 6:13 am Post subject: Re: Maybe you can help me solve a mystery? |
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Can you measure endplay at all ,should be .003” min ,zero endplay would not be good. _________________ "Albatross"! |
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Old Green Buggy Samba Member
Joined: March 19, 2018 Posts: 39
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Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 6:20 am Post subject: Re: Maybe you can help me solve a mystery? |
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calvinater wrote: |
Can you measure endplay at all ,should be .003” min ,zero endplay would not be good. |
yes it’s been measured and it’s correct. Not the issue at all. Thanks |
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Stripped66 Samba Member
Joined: May 31, 2005 Posts: 3470 Location: Charleston, SC
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Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 6:32 am Post subject: Re: Maybe you can help me solve a mystery? |
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Old Green Buggy wrote: |
I jacked up the rear end and it turns over perfectly. |
Old Green Buggy wrote: |
I went back out and turned it over with the key. It turns over by hand again. Just now it’s hard to turn. |
Your problem(s) sound a lot like you've been leaving your transmission in gear with the parking brake on. _________________
66brm wrote: |
Bodacious wrote: |
Why not just make a custom set of wires with a Y splice in them. Then you could just run one distributor. |
I don't think electrickery works that way |
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Old Green Buggy Samba Member
Joined: March 19, 2018 Posts: 39
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Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 6:44 am Post subject: Re: Maybe you can help me solve a mystery? |
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Stripped66 wrote: |
Old Green Buggy wrote: |
I jacked up the rear end and it turns over perfectly. |
Old Green Buggy wrote: |
I went back out and turned it over with the key. It turns over by hand again. Just now it’s hard to turn. |
Your problem(s) sound a lot like you've been leaving your transmission in gear with the parking brake on. |
I do leave it in gear with the brake on when it’s parked. Doesn’t everyone? Can that cause problems? That would be news to me. Interesting. Thanks |
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Stripped66 Samba Member
Joined: May 31, 2005 Posts: 3470 Location: Charleston, SC
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Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 6:53 am Post subject: Re: Maybe you can help me solve a mystery? |
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Old Green Buggy wrote: |
Stripped66 wrote: |
Old Green Buggy wrote: |
I jacked up the rear end and it turns over perfectly. |
Old Green Buggy wrote: |
I went back out and turned it over with the key. It turns over by hand again. Just now it’s hard to turn. |
Your problem(s) sound a lot like you've been leaving your transmission in gear with the parking brake on. |
I do leave it in gear with the brake on when it’s parked. Doesn’t everyone? Can that cause problems? That would be news to me. Interesting. Thanks |
It can cause the exact problems you've described when you're attempting to rotate the engine by hand to check your valve lash... _________________
66brm wrote: |
Bodacious wrote: |
Why not just make a custom set of wires with a Y splice in them. Then you could just run one distributor. |
I don't think electrickery works that way |
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