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JStews72 Samba Member
Joined: August 22, 2009 Posts: 125 Location: Philadelphia
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Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 5:49 pm Post subject: Welding feedback??? |
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I'm repairing the frame head. The bottom is getting replaced after I fix a couple spots in the top.
Since that pic, I hit the corner with ire wheel and cup as best I could, but it's a real tight spot. Then I sprayed it with Picklex20 on a humid day with a lot of condensation in the garage. With the reddish pits on the inside, it doesn't look like the Picklex treatment worked.
I'm new to welding but looking at the pics I took, I'm feeling the tacks I laid down on the frame head yesterday might work on the chassis, buts've got to get better before I move on to the body.
The early tacks looked okay, but looking on the inside I can't tell if that's good penetration. I think I've got the welder set too hot or the welding area got too hot cause I definitely blew holes on the end.
Maybe the OG metal I was trying to weld to was too thin b/c I didn't cut far enough to get to solid metal? It looks like I need to do better to get the puddles across the gap.
Any feedback is appreciated. |
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beetlenut Samba Member
Joined: May 27, 2009 Posts: 2980 Location: RI
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Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 8:34 pm Post subject: Re: Welding feedback??? |
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That's usually the problem when welding rusty metal. Cut until you reach solid, uniform steel. Also make sure the metal is clean of all rust scale. You want to weld as hot as you can without blowing through. _________________ scrapyards are for quitters
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Wetstuff wrote: |
... I spend more time shaking it than directing it?! I get a pretty decent blast for 8sec. then have to shake it again. |
- Words to live by right there!
My 74 Super rebuild thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6507104#6507104 |
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scubaseas Samba Member
Joined: May 24, 2013 Posts: 442 Location: ME & Texas, in a Bus or on a boat somewhere
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Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 10:09 pm Post subject: Re: Welding feedback??? |
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Ideally both pieces are clean, the same thickness and the same metal. You have almost decent penetration. Either move in closer or maybe turn the power up a notch and the wire feed down a bit. Play with it. You might try pushing the puddle instead of pulling it. Pushing will lead to slightly less penetration but it's a bit easier to get a decent weld on thinner stock. Try forming your puddle on the new, thick metal and pushing it onto the thinner old metal. It takes a fair amount of practice but you will eventually get the hang of it. What you have is actually pretty good but could have a bit more (20-30%) deeper penetration. Are you using .030" wire and Stargon shielding gas? _________________ Al
08/1970 T2a Westphalia owned since 1980
ASE Master certification. 50 years pushing a wrench
Retired |
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67ctbug Samba Member
Joined: January 24, 2016 Posts: 3619 Location: CT
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Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 11:48 pm Post subject: Re: Welding feedback??? |
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Are you doing your tacks in a row or skipping around? Skipping around should help with the heat but you might be running the welder hot. What king of welder are you using? _________________ '67 Beetle L41
'74 Westfalia
'69 Plymouth "Adam-12"
'63 Ragtop
'73 914
'73 Dodge W200
'72 Dodge Wrecker
Go Cubs!
World Series Champions 2016
KentPS wrote: |
...or the PO envied the terrorists' bus in "Back to the Future". |
mukluk wrote: |
He's fine, just waiting for the dragon in winklepickers to move out of his lane. |
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JStews72 Samba Member
Joined: August 22, 2009 Posts: 125 Location: Philadelphia
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Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2018 6:03 pm Post subject: Re: Welding feedback??? |
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I'm using a Millermatic 140 with .23" wire and a 75/25 bottle.
On that piece, I was trying to secure the right side to make the patch fit the bend to the left. Looking at the pic again, I see how I could have jumped around and shape the bend with strategic tacks.
What I might do now is rough cut a length to wrap around the corner, roughly bend it to match, cut around the corner and replace it all with one patch. After another rust conversion treatment.
Cut back to thicker, cleaner steel.
Less stick out.
Pool on the new metal and push to the OG panel.
Thanks for the tips. |
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scubaseas Samba Member
Joined: May 24, 2013 Posts: 442 Location: ME & Texas, in a Bus or on a boat somewhere
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Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2018 6:52 pm Post subject: Re: Welding feedback??? |
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Copper backer may help you. If you use a backer you can up the power for better penetration
You got the right welder, wire and gas. _________________ Al
08/1970 T2a Westphalia owned since 1980
ASE Master certification. 50 years pushing a wrench
Retired |
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c21darrel Samba Member
Joined: January 22, 2009 Posts: 8206 Location: San Dimas
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theKbStockpiler Samba Member
Joined: July 07, 2012 Posts: 2316 Location: Rust Belt
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Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 10:00 pm Post subject: Re: Welding feedback??? |
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You have decent gaps there so you HAVE to use the 'fill the gap method'. _________________ My beetle is not competing with your beetle. I have the yellow beetle in my town. There is a red one, a green one ......
Use all safety devices including a mask. |
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scrivyscriv Samba Electrician
Joined: October 04, 2011 Posts: 2918 Location: Memphis
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Posted: Sun Feb 25, 2018 7:46 pm Post subject: Re: Welding feedback??? |
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Looks like wire speed is too fast and heat is a little low, your welds are piling up on the surface. Also you might want to look at getting a different face shield or better lighting while you're under the hood, since your tacks are inconsistently spaced I'm guessing you don't have a good view of your work when you pull the trigger.
Overall it's not awful, I've seen much much worse. When you cut out your patches make sure you put some shape to them to match the curve of your base metal.. one of the corners is too high. When you start cleaning the tacks up you'll eventually thin out the metal too much in the high spot. Tacked in place right now you can get it close with a hammer and dolly, but for future work in thinner material you really want to get the shape pretty much dead on before you tack anything. _________________ Robert in Memphis
Dünkelgrügen 1967 Java Green bug thread
Engine rebuild thread
If you're ever in the Memphis area, you are welcome to stop by for advice and help. |
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orwell84 Samba Member
Joined: May 14, 2007 Posts: 2528 Location: Plattsburgh, New York
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Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 10:13 am Post subject: Re: Welding feedback??? |
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I think you are on the right track. Butt welding sheet metal out of position is probably as hard as it gets. There are a lot of good videos on Youtube that teach great tricks for doing this. My biggest problem has always been piling up too much weld material even though penetration is good. Some things I learned:
Hotter is usually better. You can also vary how hot your weld is by changing your distance of the gun tip to the work (further + colder) and the angle of the gun (the closer to 90* you get the hotter the weld) which help when you are welding over pitted metal. I also find it's helpful to grind as you go. This decreases the voids and pinholes you get after grinding down a piled up weld. |
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JStews72 Samba Member
Joined: August 22, 2009 Posts: 125 Location: Philadelphia
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Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2018 9:10 am Post subject: Re: Welding feedback??? |
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Thanks! All the feedback has been helpful.
Cut out the first patch and and cut more to get to thicker metal. I also tried to make straighter cuts. I intended to make one patch, wrapping it around the corner and quickly decided on 2 pieces.
Aside from the welds not looking great, I wasn't happy with the fit at the edge and the gap at the top. So I ground down the welds along the top, little hammering and a little pressure while re-applying the welds and it looks much better.
There's a little spot where I blew through right at the bend of the lip. Maybe turning down the heat a bit, backing it w/copper and filling? |
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theKbStockpiler Samba Member
Joined: July 07, 2012 Posts: 2316 Location: Rust Belt
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Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2018 1:45 pm Post subject: Re: Welding feedback??? |
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Because fit up is always difficult you are always going to have a gap that varies. This means that even with thicker metal you can't lay down a continuous bead because when you get to the larger gapped areas ,it will blow through. That leaves "repeating tack welds" to make a continuous bead as your answer. After you 'bridge the gap" and have the patch tack welded in multiple places you can finish it by starting your next tack on the edge of the last one. You want to overlap the last tack by about 1/3 to a 1/4 of the diameter of the weld pool. The more you overlap the cooler the weld pool and vise versa if you overlap it less.
Your tack welds look too cold and you are arcing too long to get it to flatten out. The bead should not be that wide.
The repair looks like it will turn out well by the way. _________________ My beetle is not competing with your beetle. I have the yellow beetle in my town. There is a red one, a green one ......
Use all safety devices including a mask. |
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JStews72 Samba Member
Joined: August 22, 2009 Posts: 125 Location: Philadelphia
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Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 3:47 pm Post subject: Re: Welding feedback??? |
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theKbStockpiler wrote: |
Your tack welds look too cold and you are arcing too long to get it to flatten out. The bead should not be that wide.
The repair looks like it will turn out well by the way. |
A figured the framehead was a good place to practice before the welds need to be pretty.
So the wire is melting and filling the gap more like soldering than welding?
More heat. Play with a slower wire speed? Look for tighter, smaller tacks. |
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skills@eurocarsplus Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007 Posts: 16803 Location: sticksville, ct.
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Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 5:22 pm Post subject: Re: Welding feedback??? |
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you need to center your welds too. some of those tacks are off center, and will be a weak spot. try to keep in the center of the seam _________________
gprudenciop wrote: |
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Jake Raby wrote: |
Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
Brian wrote: |
Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
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theKbStockpiler Samba Member
Joined: July 07, 2012 Posts: 2316 Location: Rust Belt
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Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 6:12 pm Post subject: Re: Welding feedback??? |
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Most welding skills do not go far from the basics. Even if you are an expert you can't vary the outcome much past what you get with the basic techniques.
Adjust your voltage for the thickness of the material.
Adjust your wire speed as slow as it will go and not produce a glob at the end of the wire. Again this can be fine tuned but it only makes a small difference. If you HAVE to have a long stickout , a faster wire speed helps. You really can't cut down the current that much at a low voltage setting with wirespeed. It either stubs into the work piece or globs at the end of the wire. You don't want either.
Keep the stickout as short as possible without starting to choke the arc. You get a more controllable arc that way. It's pretty hard with a MIG to have Too short a stick out. It does seem to effect the arc length if it's really short.
Weld with about the same wire speed and voltage as you would with laying a normal bead. You probably can't go as far as cutting the voltage or wirespeed by 1/3 but this can be varied some.
If you are pulse welding , you can't always concentrate on the pool because by that time it will have already gotten too hot. You concentrate on the heated zone and stopping before it spreads out too far. When the area under the arc turns red and spreads out the size of the pool you want ,let off of the trigger. If the metal is thin or has a gap this red area will match the size pool you are aiming for.
Unless you are welding thick metal 1/8th" and over, you really don't slow down (or hold the nozzle perfectly still with pulse welding) a lot to add heat to the base metal. Slowing down a little is okay but like I said you can't make a big difference with it.The pool should really spread out and be established pretty quickly or by the time the base metal gets hot enough to let the filler wire be viscus, there will be too much wire added and the bead will be too high and wide. A higher voltage setting will have to have a faster wire speed but it will add less wire to the pool overall.
If you did not have a big gap there, the weld would be too cool and not have fused.
Do a short pulse or a couple of short pulses to start the first tack. Arc off the first tack and let capillary action draw the next pool off the edge of the first tack. _________________ My beetle is not competing with your beetle. I have the yellow beetle in my town. There is a red one, a green one ......
Use all safety devices including a mask. |
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