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Avi_cado
Samba Member
Joined: October 22, 2017
Posts: 3
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 Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 10:20 am Post subject: guidance on engine upgrade!! |
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Hello all! My boyfriend and I bought a '78 camper van in July and have grand ideas of eventually completely restoring it. Neither of us, however, really have any car knowledge so we've been relying heavily on our books and google searches when doing any repairs.
My boyfriend would like to eventually replace the original engine (2000cc fuel injected, I believe) with something with a bit more HP. He made mention of doing a Subaru conversion which I'm not sure I want to do. Also we're moving in the next few months so I don't want to start until the bus is at the new house in a different state.
A mechanic I work with offered me a type 4 with 2700(ish) cc and said the only thing it needs is new gaskets. Asking ~$1000. This guy is a great mechanic and is meticulous with everything I've seen. My question is.... without having any other info, would you say this is potentially a good deal and I should buy it now (knowing I'll have to move it 1500 miles and it won't be installed for several months) or just wait and look into engines after the move? |
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Brian
Samba Moderator
Joined: May 28, 2012
Posts: 8340
Location: Oceanside
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| Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 10:51 am Post subject: Re: guidance on engine upgrade!! |
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Welcome to the forum.
I'd say that the engine is worthless if you don't see it run. Where are you located?
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Howard 111
Samba Member
Joined: July 09, 2005
Posts: 1827
Location: Virginia
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| Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 10:51 am Post subject: Re: guidance on engine upgrade!! |
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Could you buy it, or maybe give him half, and have him hold it until you have moved. Or just have him hold it for nothing, but tell him once you have moved, you would come and buy it. Talk to him, you know your situation better than I.
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http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=531270 |
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andk5591
Samba Member
Joined: August 29, 2005
Posts: 16758
Location: State College, PA
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| Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 10:52 am Post subject: Re: guidance on engine upgrade!! |
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Subaru conversions are very common. Takes a bit of work and if being done by someone else, will be costly.
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Rosie 65 bug - My mostly stock daily driver.
Woodie 69 VW woodie (Hot VWs 7/12).
"John's car" 64 VW woodie - The first ever
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Max - 73 standard Beetle hearse project - For sale
66 bug project - Real patina & Suby conversion
There's more, but not keeping them... |
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FeelthySanchez
Samba Member
Joined: February 03, 2011
Posts: 1349
Location: Now is that a real poncho, or a Sears poncho?
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| Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 2:11 pm Post subject: Re: guidance on engine upgrade!! |
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ˇBienvenido a la Samba!
Bottom line: it could be a super deal, but a few details about this engine aren't real clear right now.
Sure that's not a typo? 2700cc is 1 BIGassed mill, & be advised that it's likely built for a few more ponies than stock. Perhaps ask about it's cam, cylinder size, compression ratio, any headwork & warranty.
Seems like a win-win, especially since you folks lack much auto knowledge.
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| modok wrote: |
| I would like if you had enough clue to communicate what you are doing. |
| Ryan Tucker wrote: |
| Enough clue..Whats that mean? |
| OldIronSpine wrote: |
I'm not sure how compression works.
Turbos don't produce torque, they produce HP. Instead of torque.
The real problem with NA engines is you don't hear the nice whine of the turbo as it spools up.
Before I commit, I'm going to do more research because I don't really know what piston rings are. |
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Avi_cado
Samba Member
Joined: October 22, 2017
Posts: 3
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| Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 8:24 pm Post subject: Re: guidance on engine upgrade!! |
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Thanks, I'll try to get more info tomorrow!
Brian, I'm currently in AZ |
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Avi_cado
Samba Member
Joined: October 22, 2017
Posts: 3
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| Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 9:17 am Post subject: Re: guidance on engine upgrade!! |
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Ok.... got more info...
He put this engine together for his 914, but ended up selling it prior to installing the engine. It was last touched in 2007. Has been sitting on a shelf in his garage since. He doesn't remember all of the exact specs off the top of his head. Here's what he remembers:
Type 4 DTM
2700(ish) CC
75 stroke
103 bore
Valve - standard +2mm
Large valve springs
Aftermarket rocket arms
Standard high performance mods
Standard points distributor (009?)
200-275HP, dependent on intake and exhaust
Has induction system mounts (weber stacks)
*Needs intake and exhaust
*Needs seals replaced
*Suggested to modernize distributor
Offering for $900 |
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FreeBug
Samba Member
Joined: March 12, 2012
Posts: 4278
Location: deepest, darkest Switzerland
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| Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 9:36 am Post subject: Re: guidance on engine upgrade!! |
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Hmm, sounds like a bargain, but it's been "designed" for a 914, quite a bit lighter, and with different gearing, it's probably not the ideal engine for a bus...
Could you perhaps learn to live with the power of the 2.0 for now, until you know more about engines? It was the most powerful engine baywindows were delivered with, and if it can make you feel better, some of us in Euroland have to rely on the type 1 carb'd 1600 to move our busses!!! For us, 2.0 fuelie is a pipe dream!
Don't do Suby onless you arer willing to permanently alter the bus, it'l take quite a bit off the value, and change the character of the vehicle.
just my 0.02$ |
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FeelthySanchez
Samba Member
Joined: February 03, 2011
Posts: 1349
Location: Now is that a real poncho, or a Sears poncho?
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| Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 10:24 am Post subject: Re: guidance on engine upgrade!! |
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Unfortunately it would be way too much for a couple of VW novices - this engine is a r  cket, built for the track.
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| modok wrote: |
| I would like if you had enough clue to communicate what you are doing. |
| Ryan Tucker wrote: |
| Enough clue..Whats that mean? |
| OldIronSpine wrote: |
I'm not sure how compression works.
Turbos don't produce torque, they produce HP. Instead of torque.
The real problem with NA engines is you don't hear the nice whine of the turbo as it spools up.
Before I commit, I'm going to do more research because I don't really know what piston rings are. |
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Pruneman99
Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2012
Posts: 5013
Location: Oceanside
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| Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 10:34 am Post subject: Re: guidance on engine upgrade!! |
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| 900 bucks? I'll have that number please. |
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vwracerdave
Samba Member
Joined: November 11, 2004
Posts: 15309
Location: Deep in the 405
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| Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 11:19 am Post subject: Re: guidance on engine upgrade!! |
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| Avi_cado wrote: |
Type 4 DTM
2700(ish) CC
75 stroke
103 bore
Valve - standard +2mm
Large valve springs
Aftermarket rocket arms
Standard high performance mods
Standard points distributor (009?)
200-275HP, dependent on intake and exhaust
Has induction system mounts (weber stacks)
*Needs intake and exhaust
*Needs seals replaced
*Suggested to modernize distributor
Offering for $900 |
The only meaningful information this tells you is the engine is a 75X103 = 2500cc. All the rest is just fancy marketing lingo to sound better than it really is, including the 200-275 HP guess.
A complete running engine might be worth the $900.
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 11:30 am Post subject: Re: guidance on engine upgrade!! |
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| Avi_cado wrote: |
Ok.... got more info...
He put this engine together for his 914, but ended up selling it prior to installing the engine. It was last touched in 2007. Has been sitting on a shelf in his garage since. He doesn't remember all of the exact specs off the top of his head. Here's what he remembers:
Type 4 DTM
2700(ish) CC
75 stroke
103 bore
Valve - standard +2mm
Large valve springs
Aftermarket rocket arms
Standard high performance mods
Standard points distributor (009?)
200-275HP, dependent on intake and exhaust
Has induction system mounts (weber stacks)
*Needs intake and exhaust
*Needs seals replaced
*Suggested to modernize distributor
Offering for $900 |
There is a LOT wrong...or potentially wrong...or downright difficult ... in this list.
Understand that 2.7L is a HUGE engine for a type 4. Lots of machine work and probably 5-6 cylinder stud modifications and clearancing for a stroker crank...and the stroker crank itself....means lots of cutting, grinding and milling.
DO NOT...accept 2700-ish as an acceptable displacement. If a person build an engine this advanced...and it is an advanced type 4 engine...and does not know teh exact cc's to within 1cc....thats a HUGE, HUGE problem statement on attention to detail...which an engine like this will require in spades.
This is NOT a type 1 engine.
1. There are no "standard" performance mods for a type 4. Have that statement explained VERY CAREFULLY...in great detail
2. Whose aftermarket rocker arms. There have been VERY few for a type 4....ever. Maybe Car Craft or Pauter....and all have been problematic for anything but racing as most are needle bearing.
3. Valves...standard +2mm???? Standard +2mm...for what engine?
A 1.7? a 1.8? a 2.0?. The 2.0L valves...42mm x 36mm...would put that in the 44mm x 38mm range....for a 2.7L engine....maybe.
And for an engine like that...I would want to know whose valves and what series. It will make a huge difference.
And...would want to know EXACTLY WHO built the heads...and how the seats were installed. That makes the difference between life or death for an engine like this.
4. While standard points ignition is just fine....a 009 is NOT fine. 009's run like crap with virtually every type 4 built unless it was totally rebuilt and recurved. Find out.
5. Large valve springs means nothing...and may actually be a detriment. 44 x 38 valves do not actually require much more than what is stock ...which already a single HD valve spring....unless you are running high lift and high revs....and in that case....
6. You need to know exactly what cam and what lifters. You put the wrong cam in a type 4 engine like this and it can be junk.
7. What oil pump?....and if its not a factory type 4 pump...or at least a stock sized pump....how is the oil pressure being controlled?
8. The exhaust you will require to keep an engine like that running cool...will cost you more than $1000. Again...its not a type 1 and type 4 performance exhaust systems do not grow on trees.
9. Excellent carbs to feed that will cost $500+
Lastly....if it was set up for a 914....a 2200 lb vehicle....with moderately high gearing compared to your 4000+ lb bus with very low gearing....the torque and rpm range will be totally different for what you require.
I would pass on it. Not saying its not worth $1000....but is just nowhere near what you require. Ray |
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jpaull
Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2005
Posts: 3466
Location: Paradise, Ca
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| Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 1:50 pm Post subject: Re: guidance on engine upgrade!! |
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Can you get some pictures of the engine? Some pictures of the heads without the valve covers on too?
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[email protected] MPH 1/4 Mile & 8.1 @ 83.7MPH in 1/8 Mile with Mild Type 1 VW Mag Case 2234cc commuter engine in stock weight bug w/only .491 total lift(CB2292 Cam), 42x37 heads, 48idf's, Street tires, Belt on, Mufflers, Pump gas, video of the run here: https://youtu.be/M3SPqMOKAOg
Transmission by MCMScott:
Rhino case, Klinkenberg 4.12, Superdiff, 002 mainshaft with 091 first idler. Weddle 1.48 Third & 1.14 Fourth. |
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Zed999
Samba Member
Joined: March 04, 2018
Posts: 1248
Location: UK
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| Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 1:57 pm Post subject: Re: guidance on engine upgrade!! |
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| For the money I'd snap it up and fit a mild bus friendly cam and make sure the CR was down to stock. For not much money you'd have a stonking bus engine. If I didn't have a clue I'd still buy it and worry about the details later. Others are more cautious. |
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veeweeman
Samba Member
Joined: December 20, 2009
Posts: 940
Location: New Port Richey, FL
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| Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 9:37 am Post subject: Re: guidance on engine upgrade!! |
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For investment reliability I'd go with the Subaru swap for long term. ...there is a utube channel that documents the entire swap....this route will set you back about 5g....but in the end, you will get many, many years of enjoyment out of your bus without a single wrench involved!
Good luck with your search. |
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jpaull
Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2005
Posts: 3466
Location: Paradise, Ca
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| Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 10:36 am Post subject: Re: guidance on engine upgrade!! |
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| veeweeman wrote: |
For investment reliability I'd go with the Subaru swap for long term. ...there is a utube channel that documents the entire swap....this route will set you back about 5g....but in the end, you will get many, many years of enjoyment out of your bus without a single wrench involved!
Good luck with your search. |
I agree that a subaru swap would be "Better" as a end result after everything is done and a experienced enthusiest had put in a zillion hours working out the "bugs".
But in a situation where a couple is not very experienced, suggesting the long journey of a subaru swap is un realistic. Paying someine else to do it is unrealistic. Its not something a non car person simply goes on youtube and figures it out. Those you tube videos are meant for hardcore gearheads that have the ability to complete crazy projects.
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[email protected] MPH 1/4 Mile & 8.1 @ 83.7MPH in 1/8 Mile with Mild Type 1 VW Mag Case 2234cc commuter engine in stock weight bug w/only .491 total lift(CB2292 Cam), 42x37 heads, 48idf's, Street tires, Belt on, Mufflers, Pump gas, video of the run here: https://youtu.be/M3SPqMOKAOg
Transmission by MCMScott:
Rhino case, Klinkenberg 4.12, Superdiff, 002 mainshaft with 091 first idler. Weddle 1.48 Third & 1.14 Fourth. |
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