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BWE Samba Member
Joined: October 01, 2017 Posts: 14 Location: Grand Rapids, MI
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Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2018 2:18 pm Post subject: No-Go Bug: Total Power Loss! |
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Transmission went out on the way home, or so I thought!
Dropped the engine to inspect for problems and everything *seems* good. If I push the bug in 1st or Reverse the input shaft turns opposite directions, showing that it goes in gear, and the engine runs just fine, so I assume there’s a clutch problem!
I’ve never really replaced or troubleshot a clutch, but it seems simple enough? Going to take a guess from the look of it that it probably needs replacing. Alternately, I suppose it could be related to the clutch cable/‘actuator’ arm adjustments?
Please forgive my vocab, I’m pretty green at mechanicing. : )
Thoughts?
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bluebus86 Banned
Joined: September 02, 2010 Posts: 11075
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Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2018 2:37 pm Post subject: Re: No-Go Bug: Total Power Loss! |
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looks used, id put a new one if my car. The depth of the shallowest rivets is my gauge for this, its low enough to warrant replacement from that.
I asume your pedal operation was fine with about half inch or a tad more pedal freeplay, correct?
One thing is I have never worn a clutch the point of it wont allow the car to suddenly drive at all, usually there is another failure mode than wear on the lining for this to occur. Lining wear is not sudden from working fine to total loss. Usually when a clutch suddenly goes from working fine with no excessive slip, to it not working at all means that the clutch has become suddenly slippery from an oil leak, or a failure in the spring mechanism, something broke. (you'd get a loss in pedal tension if spring failure happens, but not with oil on clutch) Is the disc oily?
if the loss in clutch was gradual, then it is likely only a wear issue and a new clutch is needed, if oily, you need to repair oil leak, if broken spring, a new clutch will fix that to with a new pressure plate.
Good luck Bug On, _________________ Help Prevent VW Engine Fires, see this link.....Engine safety wire information
Stop introducing dirt into your oil when adjusting valves ... https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=683022 |
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vwoldbug Samba Member
Joined: January 28, 2009 Posts: 1214 Location: Ohio
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Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2018 3:52 pm Post subject: Re: No-Go Bug: Total Power Loss! |
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What does the other side of disc look like . Also has the nose of the disc been rubbing . |
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Cusser Samba Member
Joined: October 02, 2006 Posts: 31360 Location: Hot Arizona
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Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2018 4:23 pm Post subject: Re: No-Go Bug: Total Power Loss! |
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If this happened suddenly, and the VW will not move at all, might be an issue with one of the rear drums, the splines wearing out, and not a clutch or transmission issue at all.
Since your engine is currently out, if your VW has IRS (drive axles with CV joints) I'd think that you could put the handbrake on or put rear tires on the ground and see if you can rotate both axles. If the splines in a drum are bad, axle will turn even though the rear brakes/wheels are locked up.
However, could also be slippage. A too-thin clutch disc can cause slippage. If your clutch disc edge fits within a 7mm open end wrench, then it's due for immediate replacement. Oil on a clutch disc surface can also cause slippage, as can bad flywheel surface or worn/weak pressure plate.
If slippage, I would not NOT re-use a pressure plate, and I'd get the flywheel resurfaced or replaced. Replacing flywheel means checking/adjusting crankshaft end play. _________________ 1970 VW (owned since 1972) and 1971 VW Convertible (owned since 1976), second owner of each. The '71 now has the 1835 engine, swapped from the '70. Second owner of each. 1988 Mazda B2200 truck, 1998 Frontier, 2014 Yukon, 2004 Frontier King Cab. All manual transmission except for the Yukon. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335294 http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335297 |
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BWE Samba Member
Joined: October 01, 2017 Posts: 14 Location: Grand Rapids, MI
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Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2018 1:23 am Post subject: Re: No-Go Bug: Total Power Loss! |
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Clutch disk is a solid 8cm all the way around and looks the same on bith sides, and there is no oil anywhere inside the bell housing (although a bunch of black crud fell out when I removed the clutch). Pedal seems to be operating fine/per usual.
Got it up off the ground and found that the driverside tire moves in tandem with the trans mainshift, but the passengerside tire has no apparent connection as it spins freely without any rotation in the other tire or trans main, which i think supprts Cusser’s notion that the axle splines may be shot, but doesn’t explain why there’s total loss if one tire is still tied in? |
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GArBa Samba Member
Joined: January 27, 2014 Posts: 2105 Location: Milano, Italy
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Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2018 3:55 am Post subject: Re: No-Go Bug: Total Power Loss! |
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If splines get stripped on one side that one would be the one with less resistance thus the differential is going to send all the torque on that side and the car won't move. By pushing the car you are driving the axle with the wheel that still makes contact so the gears will move. _________________ cars:
'97 type 1 1600i
'14 type AA Seat Mii (sadly dead after 270.000 km)
'22 type C1 T-Cross
'23 type AC3 Hyundai I10 (VW no longer makes small cars!)
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moped:
'82 Benelli Magnum 3v |
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David_nc_72std Samba Member
Joined: August 22, 2015 Posts: 841 Location: Winston-Salem, NC
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Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2018 4:07 am Post subject: Re: No-Go Bug: Total Power Loss! |
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BWE wrote: |
....which i think supprts Cusser’s notion that the axle splines may be shot, ...... |
Usually its the splines on the brake drum that shear off, if you are lucky the axle splines are still good. The problem can be caused by not tightening the axle nut to the proper torque, so check the nut on the driver side to make sure it isn't loose. |
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Cusser Samba Member
Joined: October 02, 2006 Posts: 31360 Location: Hot Arizona
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Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2018 6:22 am Post subject: Re: No-Go Bug: Total Power Loss! |
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BWE wrote: |
supprts Cusser’s notion that the axle splines may be shot |
Actually - I didn't say that axle splines might be bad (read previous post), I said the splines in the DRUM might be bad.
One bad drum is enough to stop your VW, because of the differential. _________________ 1970 VW (owned since 1972) and 1971 VW Convertible (owned since 1976), second owner of each. The '71 now has the 1835 engine, swapped from the '70. Second owner of each. 1988 Mazda B2200 truck, 1998 Frontier, 2014 Yukon, 2004 Frontier King Cab. All manual transmission except for the Yukon. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335294 http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335297 |
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sjbartnik Samba Member
Joined: September 01, 2011 Posts: 5994 Location: Brooklyn
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Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2018 6:26 am Post subject: Re: No-Go Bug: Total Power Loss! |
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BWE wrote: |
Got it up off the ground and found that the driverside tire moves in tandem with the trans mainshift, but the passengerside tire has no apparent connection as it spins freely without any rotation in the other tire or trans main, which i think supprts Cusser’s notion that the axle splines may be shot, but doesn’t explain why there’s total loss if one tire is still tied in? |
That's how differentials work. As an example, if you had one rear wheel on pavement and the other on solid ice, you ain't going anywhere. All the torque will get transmitted to the wheel on ice.
So your findings to seem to suggest that the splines in the drum may have failed. _________________ 1965 Volkswagen 1500 Variant S
2000 Kawasaki W650 |
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dirtkeeper Samba Member
Joined: February 19, 2008 Posts: 3200 Location: Left of everywhere
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Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2018 6:39 am Post subject: Re: No-Go Bug: Total Power Loss! |
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What exactly were the original symptoms? Why did you think it was the transmission? |
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ashman40 Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2007 Posts: 15982 Location: North Florida, USA
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Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2018 7:38 am Post subject: Re: No-Go Bug: Total Power Loss! |
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Cusser wrote: |
Actually - I didn't say that axle splines might be bad (read previous post), I said the splines in the DRUM might be bad.
One bad drum is enough to stop your VW, because of the differential. |
To illustrate Cusser's point...
This was actually from a thread on stripped threads on the axle end, but you can see that the loose axle nut resulted in the drum splines getting eaten out. When this happens the axle can no longer apply torque to the drum to drive the drum/wheel/tire. If failed, you should see that the axle+axle nut are rotating while the drum remains stationary. A properly torqued axle nut (216ft--lbs) means the drum and axle are essential one piece. They should rotate together.
The "open diff" in the transaxle means power is passed to the side with the least resistance. It is a common misconception that all differentials pass power evenly to both drive wheels. This is actually NOT how differential are designed. By their name you can tell they were meant to allow the wheels to rotate at "different" speeds as you round corners. Even so much as one wheel NOT rotating and the other doing all the rotation. This means any two of the following should be rotating in sync:
left axle
right axle
input shaft/engine
It is possible with no load for BOTH wheels to rotate but as soon as one has more resistance (stiffer bearings; tighter brake shoe; less grease) the differential will pass power to the one with less resistance.
In your example were all the wheels were off the ground and you were watching the input shaft rotate as you spun one wheel... if you had a buddy hold the shaft in place I'm certain the stationary wheel would have started to rotate. Or if you had gone to the other wheel and rotate it you would have seen either the opposite wheel or the input shaft spin. _________________ AshMan40
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'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!} |
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Eric&Barb Samba Member
Joined: September 19, 2004 Posts: 24732 Location: Olympia Wash Rinse & Repeat
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Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2018 9:41 am Post subject: Re: No-Go Bug: Total Power Loss! |
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BWE wrote: |
Clutch disk is a solid 8cm all the way around and looks the same on bith sides, and there is no oil anywhere inside the bell housing (although a bunch of black crud fell out when I removed the clutch). Pedal seems to be operating fine/per usual. |
8cm?? 5 cm is about 2 inches thick. Think you mean 8 mm thick, which anything over 7 mm is fine. _________________ In Stereo, Where Available! |
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BWE Samba Member
Joined: October 01, 2017 Posts: 14 Location: Grand Rapids, MI
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Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2018 9:46 am Post subject: Re: No-Go Bug: Total Power Loss! |
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Cusser wrote: |
Actually - I didn't say that axle splines might be bad (read previous post), I said the splines in the DRUM might be bad.
One bad drum is enough to stop your VW, because of the differential. |
Indeed, and so it seems to be the problem. I hadn’t noticed before but the passenger wheel and drum is spinning freely while the axle nut remains stationary. When I turn the nut with a socket I can feel it engaged with the trans. There’s also an obvious gap between the nut and drum, as well- it was clearly not tight enough. Unfortunately I threw out my back and further work is halted for now!
dirtkeeper wrote: |
Why did you think it was the transmission? |
When I lost power I heard what I thought was the grinding of gears in the trans. I’ve never dealt with such a problem on the axle/drum end and it hadn’t occurred to me. It seemed obvious: Engine runs, grinding on shift, then no power to wheels.
Thanks so much for the replies and info! I’ll let you know how things go![/i] |
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Eric&Barb Samba Member
Joined: September 19, 2004 Posts: 24732 Location: Olympia Wash Rinse & Repeat
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Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2018 9:52 am Post subject: Re: No-Go Bug: Total Power Loss! |
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When you get a new drum on there, male sure to properly torque it to the correct spec., anything less and you will be back to this. _________________ In Stereo, Where Available! |
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Cusser Samba Member
Joined: October 02, 2006 Posts: 31360 Location: Hot Arizona
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Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2018 11:14 am Post subject: Re: No-Go Bug: Total Power Loss! |
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Eric&Barb wrote: |
When you get a new drum on there, make sure to properly torque it to the correct spec., anything less and you will be back to this. |
Last year, I purchased two Raybestos rear drums for mine from Rock Auto, and when they arrived they were stamped "made in Germany", wasn't expecting that. But might still be German-made, don't rely on my experience though !!
https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=427110&cc=1280179&jsn=403&jsn=403 _________________ 1970 VW (owned since 1972) and 1971 VW Convertible (owned since 1976), second owner of each. The '71 now has the 1835 engine, swapped from the '70. Second owner of each. 1988 Mazda B2200 truck, 1998 Frontier, 2014 Yukon, 2004 Frontier King Cab. All manual transmission except for the Yukon. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335294 http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335297 |
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BWE Samba Member
Joined: October 01, 2017 Posts: 14 Location: Grand Rapids, MI
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Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 4:34 am Post subject: Re: No-Go Bug: Total Power Loss! |
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Well, after a series of unfortunate personal events I was finally able to get things put back together.
The old drum indeed had the splines shorn clean off out of the drum, except for the very edge. It boggles the mind how perfectly smooth the insides were. Even when I cleaned out the axle splines, all that fell away was packed grease, which as far as I can tell means that previous owner had the bad drum off and back on and decided just to make-do, while the nut backed off ever so slightly and caused the remaining bits to divorce from the axle.
Picked up a new drum from Appletree, which to my surprise was drilled and tapped- The drums on my bug had splined posts pushed through the back of the drum, with regular logouts. Picked up some wheel bolts, which had to be shortened to fit the 5-4 lug adapters (bolts were too long and hanging up on the brake internals).
Put a new e-brake cable in too, although I haven't quite located it's matching pass-through in the chassis to actually get it attached to the handle yet.
It does go down the road though, so it's a mighty fine step in the right direction.
Thanks for all the input! |
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FeelthySanchez Samba Member
Joined: February 03, 2011 Posts: 1349 Location: Now is that a real poncho, or a Sears poncho?
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Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 5:55 am Post subject: Re: No-Go Bug: Total Power Loss! |
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Glad to hear everything's "back" to normal. No longer a greenhorn, either!
Kind of a roundabout execution but it's all good, as that clutch disc was pretty well smoked.
Drilled & tapped drums are factory/normal - the studs are a custom modification.
Re the E-brake cable (remember to smear grease on it) routing, look for this feature:
Then this:
For better access, may have to remove the handle's pivot pin:
Shitty diagram. Handle pivot pin is item #12, the LARGE diameter pin:
_________________
modok wrote: |
I would like if you had enough clue to communicate what you are doing. |
Ryan Tucker wrote: |
Enough clue..Whats that mean? |
OldIronSpine wrote: |
I'm not sure how compression works.
Turbos don't produce torque, they produce HP. Instead of torque.
The real problem with NA engines is you don't hear the nice whine of the turbo as it spools up.
Before I commit, I'm going to do more research because I don't really know what piston rings are. |
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