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oprn Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016 Posts: 12632 Location: Western Canada
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Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2018 4:11 pm Post subject: Re: Pertronix Flamethrower Timing |
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I was thinking the same thing! Can you? |
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oprn Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016 Posts: 12632 Location: Western Canada
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Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 4:38 am Post subject: |
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Dale M. wrote: |
To set static timing #1 cylinder has to be on compression stroke (both valves closed)...
Crank pulley has to be on 7.5° BTDC...
Put a test lamp across across negative (-) terminal of coil and ground.
Turn key on (do not start)..
Loosen and rotate distributor till lamp just comes on... Tighten distributor (be sure rotor is still pointing to #1 tower on dist cap) ..
Your static timing is now set at 7.5° BTDC...
With 24° mechanical advance and 7.5° of static timing your total timing should be about 31.5 degrees at full advance (3000+ RPM) ...
Dale |
Can this be done on a Pertronix III?
Anyone with experience please. It may influence what I buy in the near future.
Thanks |
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Dale M. Samba Member
Joined: April 12, 2006 Posts: 20365 Location: Just a tiny bit west of Yosemite Valley
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Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 6:09 am Post subject: |
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Busstom wrote: |
Dale M. wrote: |
msimoni wrote: |
Dale M. wrote: |
msimoni wrote: |
Dale M. wrote: |
Best range is 28-32° BTDC at 3000 rpm... Forget what idle timing is.... If your distributor puts in more than 20-22° centrifugal advance you can never get the two values you are looking for to work... You can't have 7.5 at idle and 30 at 3000 rpm....
The 7.5° BTDC is generally a "static" value not with engine running...
You dont drive your car at idle, you drive it at 3000 RPM...
Dale |
Thanks Dale!
I will ask my engine builder if he has put the gear that turns the distributor in the correct position, and have him here to double check it. Would that make me read over 10 degrees difference (let's say if he has put the gear one or two tooths after TDC position? |
The gear has NOTHING TO DO WITH IT...... Its all about where timing mark on pulley is located in relationship to case split line when points "open" for # 1 cylinder...
What is total mechanical advance internal in distributor?...
Do you understand how to static set timing?
Dale |
Dale
Not sure about static timing.
My distributor will mechanically (centrifugal) advance 24 degrees .
I have set the timing on the distributor with both valves on cyl one closed . Is there any tips on this? Thanks |
To set static timing #1 cylinder has to be on compression stroke (both valves closed)...
Crank pulley has to be on 7.5° BTDC...
Put a test lamp across across negative (-) terminal of coil and ground.
Turn key on (do not start)..
Loosen and rotate distributor till lamp just comes on... Tighten distributor (be sure rotor is still pointing to #1 tower on dist cap) ..
Your static timing is now set at 7.5° BTDC...
With 24° mechanical advance and 7.5° of static timing your total timing should be about 31.5 degrees at full advance (3000+ RPM) ...
Dale |
Dale, correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think he could set static timing with an Ignitor. I said "could" because the OP hasn't reported back to this thread, so we don't know his outcome or just what he ended up doing. |
Can you explain to me if there is a difference in removing ground from coil with points and how it may be any different than removing ground with electronic module... Remember the "spark" is cause by collapse in magnetic field across secondary side of coil when ground (current path) is removed ...
Just becasue OP did not respond back does not change validity of process, its the technology not the ability of the mechanic...
Sorry if this comes across a but snarky but I can not seem describe processes in more flowery terms....
Dale _________________ “Fear The Government That Wants To Take Your Guns" - Thomas Jefferson.
"Kellison Sand Piper Roadster" For Street & Show.
"Joe Pody Sandrover" Buggy with 2180 for Autocross (Sold)
============================================================
All suggestions and advice are purely my own opinion. You are free to ignore them if you wish ... |
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Busstom Samba Member
Joined: November 23, 2014 Posts: 3790 Location: San Jose, CA
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Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 7:32 am Post subject: |
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Dale M. wrote: |
Can you explain to me if there is a difference in removing ground from coil with points and how it may be any different than removing ground with electronic module... |
No, that's why I asked you
I've run points all my life, but I've read numerous times that you can't set static with electronic...so I'm curious now if what I've been reading all this time is false. So you tell me. |
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Dale M. Samba Member
Joined: April 12, 2006 Posts: 20365 Location: Just a tiny bit west of Yosemite Valley
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Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 7:38 am Post subject: |
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Busstom wrote: |
Dale M. wrote: |
Can you explain to me if there is a difference in removing ground from coil with points and how it may be any different than removing ground with electronic module... |
No, that's why I asked you
I've run points all my life, but I've read numerous times that you can't set static with electronic...so I'm curious now if what I've been reading all this time is false. So you tell me. |
I do my Compufire system(s) this way and it works on same principles as "other" point replacement modules... I have advocated this process many times and nobody has ever come back and stated it did not work for them....
Some times comments are made by people who do not know how system works and then the negatives are parroted by others which are as much in the dark...
All I can say it "try it"....
Dale _________________ “Fear The Government That Wants To Take Your Guns" - Thomas Jefferson.
"Kellison Sand Piper Roadster" For Street & Show.
"Joe Pody Sandrover" Buggy with 2180 for Autocross (Sold)
============================================================
All suggestions and advice are purely my own opinion. You are free to ignore them if you wish ... |
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Busstom Samba Member
Joined: November 23, 2014 Posts: 3790 Location: San Jose, CA
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Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 9:35 am Post subject: |
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Dale M. wrote: |
Busstom wrote: |
Dale M. wrote: |
Can you explain to me if there is a difference in removing ground from coil with points and how it may be any different than removing ground with electronic module... |
No, that's why I asked you
I've run points all my life, but I've read numerous times that you can't set static with electronic...so I'm curious now if what I've been reading all this time is false. So you tell me. |
I do my Compufire system(s) this way and it works on same principles as "other" point replacement modules... I have advocated this process many times and nobody has ever come back and stated it did not work for them....
Some times comments are made by people who do not know how system works and then the negatives are parroted by others which are as much in the dark...
All I can say it "try it"....
Dale |
Shit, that's awesome. If you say it works, I take your word for it. I have some old ratty electronic ignitions sitting around that came on other vehicles (which I quickly yanked). I'm happy to throw one in and give it a whirl. Thanks! |
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oprn Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016 Posts: 12632 Location: Western Canada
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Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 10:53 am Post subject: Re: Pertronix Flamethrower Timing |
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I just tried it and so far no go. The light comes on but I can turn the distributor 1/3 of the way around an not even a flicker. |
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Dale M. Samba Member
Joined: April 12, 2006 Posts: 20365 Location: Just a tiny bit west of Yosemite Valley
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Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 11:03 am Post subject: Re: Pertronix Flamethrower Timing |
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Sure module is good?.... Has it run on engine before trying this test...
Here is theory...
Or...
Dale _________________ “Fear The Government That Wants To Take Your Guns" - Thomas Jefferson.
"Kellison Sand Piper Roadster" For Street & Show.
"Joe Pody Sandrover" Buggy with 2180 for Autocross (Sold)
============================================================
All suggestions and advice are purely my own opinion. You are free to ignore them if you wish ... |
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oprn Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016 Posts: 12632 Location: Western Canada
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Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 11:39 am Post subject: Re: Pertronix Flamethrower Timing |
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Dale M. wrote: |
Sure module is good?.... Has it run on engine before trying this test...
Dale |
Brand new just out of the box now.
I just went to their website, looked it up under most frequently asked questions. Here is what I found:
"Only Ignitor systems and not the Ignitor II or III can be static timed."
So I will have to conclude then that it will not work. |
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Dale M. Samba Member
Joined: April 12, 2006 Posts: 20365 Location: Just a tiny bit west of Yosemite Valley
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Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 1:31 pm Post subject: Re: Pertronix Flamethrower Timing |
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Well crap......
Do the say how to set initial timing?
dale _________________ “Fear The Government That Wants To Take Your Guns" - Thomas Jefferson.
"Kellison Sand Piper Roadster" For Street & Show.
"Joe Pody Sandrover" Buggy with 2180 for Autocross (Sold)
============================================================
All suggestions and advice are purely my own opinion. You are free to ignore them if you wish ... |
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oprn Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016 Posts: 12632 Location: Western Canada
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Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 2:00 pm Post subject: Re: Pertronix Flamethrower Timing |
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"Time in the usual fashion".
I was hoping for something closer than "one hand on the distributor while someone twists her tail" timing for the initial start up of this new engine. That is how I see them doing it with the Pertronix on YouTube.
Maybe do the first run up and cam break in with an old 009.
Last edited by oprn on Fri Mar 30, 2018 2:11 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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oprn Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016 Posts: 12632 Location: Western Canada
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Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 2:09 pm Post subject: Re: Pertronix Flamethrower Timing |
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I have a cheap ($80) Chinese electronic distributor in my other engine that static timed just fine. Didn't want to spend good money on a worn out engine and the 009 was scattering spark everywhere. The Chinese dizzy was just an interim solution so we could drive the Buggy while I built this engine. Looks like it's pretty good for that kind of money! It sure smartened the old engine up. |
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Busstom Samba Member
Joined: November 23, 2014 Posts: 3790 Location: San Jose, CA
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Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 2:15 pm Post subject: Re: Pertronix Flamethrower Timing |
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oprn wrote: |
Dale M. wrote: |
Sure module is good?.... Has it run on engine before trying this test...
Dale |
Brand new just out of the box now.
I just went to their website, looked it up under most frequently asked questions. Here is what I found:
"Only Ignitor systems and not the Ignitor II or III can be static timed." |
Ahhhhh.....this rings a bell.....I think I saw something like that when I got my SVDA from ACN. Yanked that stuff out anyhoo, but I knew I read it somewhere. Good work! |
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oprn Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016 Posts: 12632 Location: Western Canada
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Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 2:41 pm Post subject: Re: Pertronix Flamethrower Timing |
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What made me suspicious of it working was my experience with model aircraft engines. The old points ones start like a charm with just a flick of the prop. The new ones with electronic ignition will not hand start. They need more speed than that to generate a strong enough pulse from the pickup to get spark. No choice but to use an electric starter on them now, no more hand flip starts.
One of the things that has always impressed me about a stock VW ignition system was that as long as you could get it to pop over one compression it was running no matter the temperature. When we were having issues with the ignition switch/high wiring resistance on the old '69 Bay Window I would get the wife behind the wheel, lean on the back of the Bus and have her pop the clutch as soon as it moved. Started every time in less than 6 feet travel, sometimes as little as 2 feet!
I seriously doubt this Pertronix will do that! |
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Dale M. Samba Member
Joined: April 12, 2006 Posts: 20365 Location: Just a tiny bit west of Yosemite Valley
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Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 3:32 pm Post subject: Re: Pertronix Flamethrower Timing |
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oprn wrote: |
What made me suspicious of it working was my experience with model aircraft engines. The old points ones start like a charm with just a flick of the prop. The new ones with electronic ignition will not hand start. They need more speed than that to generate a strong enough pulse from the pickup to get spark. No choice but to use an electric starter on them now, no more hand flip starts.
One of the things that has always impressed me about a stock VW ignition system was that as long as you could get it to pop over one compression it was running no matter the temperature. When we were having issues with the ignition switch/high wiring resistance on the old '69 Bay Window I would get the wife behind the wheel, lean on the back of the Bus and have her pop the clutch as soon as it moved. Started every time in less than 6 feet travel, sometimes as little as 2 feet!
I seriously doubt this Pertronix will do that! |
Back to glow plugs...
Dale _________________ “Fear The Government That Wants To Take Your Guns" - Thomas Jefferson.
"Kellison Sand Piper Roadster" For Street & Show.
"Joe Pody Sandrover" Buggy with 2180 for Autocross (Sold)
============================================================
All suggestions and advice are purely my own opinion. You are free to ignore them if you wish ... |
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oprn Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016 Posts: 12632 Location: Western Canada
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Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 5:11 pm Post subject: Re: Pertronix Flamethrower Timing |
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Dale M. wrote: |
Back to glow plugs...
Dale |
Hate to though, this Saito gets 50 minutes on 8 oz of gasoline! And glow fuel is $35 a gallon here... |
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Dale M. Samba Member
Joined: April 12, 2006 Posts: 20365 Location: Just a tiny bit west of Yosemite Valley
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Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 6:40 pm Post subject: Re: Pertronix Flamethrower Timing |
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oprn wrote: |
Dale M. wrote: |
Back to glow plugs...
Dale |
Hate to though, this Saito gets 50 minutes on 8 oz of gasoline! And glow fuel is $35 a gallon here... |
Yeah, years ago (70's) used to run RC race boats and at that time nitro fuel was $20 a gallon.....
I have old Hoof 45cc ignition motor up on the shelf even have 1.5 volt coil for it, no spark plug though but a Champion glow plug.... Will probably always be dust collector, but I take it down every once in while and give a shot of WD 40 to keep it loose....
If you were the hot dog in unlimited hydro class you ran a MaCoy twin ( two 60's back to back)
Dale _________________ “Fear The Government That Wants To Take Your Guns" - Thomas Jefferson.
"Kellison Sand Piper Roadster" For Street & Show.
"Joe Pody Sandrover" Buggy with 2180 for Autocross (Sold)
============================================================
All suggestions and advice are purely my own opinion. You are free to ignore them if you wish ... |
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Rev. Scott Samba Member
Joined: June 04, 2006 Posts: 770 Location: Philo, Ca.
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Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 11:15 am Post subject: Re: Pertronix Flamethrower Timing |
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Just put the Pertronix III svda on mine. Vacume on, 3000 rpm, I'm at 33degrees...runs a bit retarded. my engine builder says no more than 32 degrees. I'm reading here that up to 44 is acceptable? I am new to svda's...always ran 009's before...and the pertronix unit is a bit different at that. So who has a solid answer? Thanx, and Cheers. _________________ "I haven't seen one of those since I was shootin' at 'em!" |
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modok Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009 Posts: 26743 Location: Colorado Springs
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Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 11:31 am Post subject: Re: Pertronix Flamethrower Timing |
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Rev. Scott wrote: |
Vacume on, 3000 rpm, I'm at 33degrees...runs a bit retarded. my engine builder says no more than 32 degrees. |
Time it to 32 at 3k with the vac line disconnected. |
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Rev. Scott Samba Member
Joined: June 04, 2006 Posts: 770 Location: Philo, Ca.
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Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 5:11 pm Post subject: Re: Pertronix Flamethrower Timing |
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Plugged on the carb side, right? _________________ "I haven't seen one of those since I was shootin' at 'em!" |
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