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Damaged flywheel question
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furgo
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 5:26 am    Post subject: Damaged flywheel question Reply with quote

I initially posted this on the stupid questions thread, but I thought I'd move the post and ask here instead.

I had a type 4 flywheel (228 mm, from a bus) with a couple of broken teeth and some other gnashed ones. I eventually replaced the flywheel with a healthy one, so that's fixed.

I'm simply wondering what to do with the old one. This is what it looks like:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I have no use for that damaged flywheel as it is, so I'll either throw it away or sell it if someone can have a use for it.

Just to have an idea though, can such a damaged flywheel be repaired? Are they commonly fixed by e.g. replacing the ring gear?

To be honest, I'm not expecting to make money out of it, I just find it always a pity to throw away OG parts if they can be salvaged at all, hence the question.
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66brm
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 5:35 am    Post subject: Re: Damaged flywheel question Reply with quote

The ring gear can be replaced, and the surface reground to restore it to working order
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gt1953
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 6:25 am    Post subject: Re: Damaged flywheel question Reply with quote

For the price of a german flywheel replace it.
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 2:27 pm    Post subject: Re: Damaged flywheel question Reply with quote

66brm wrote:
The ring gear can be replaced, and the surface reground to restore it to working order


Unless there is something new and cool out there....no the ring gear cannot be replaced. Its a type 4 flywheel. The ring gear is part of the flywheel....not shrunk on.

Also....as for "the cost of a German flywheel"....."good" used meaning not burned up or cracked or rusted....type 4 flywheels with no snout damage are getting harder to find every day. I dont buy them unless I can see them in person because 9 out of 10 are junk.

The only new flywheels I have found....of known quality....are new forged 200mm conversion units at the type 4 store....at $309 each....or 215mm and 228mm in Porsche 914/915 spec.....starting at over $400 each.

You can get new forged...China made....at Cip1 for about half that....so take your chances on flatness and runnout.

So....the question of whether anything can be done with the chipped flywheel...is kind of valid. You "should" be able to have the teeth welded by a good welding shop....and then you csn hand grind/file it to usable shape.
What the welding would cost?.....maybe $75-100. It may not be worth it to many when they can take their chances with a new China forged flywheel for $150-$200. But...at some poimt in the future it may be worth repairing.....if you can keep it around.
Same issue with the millions of perfectly rebuildable BETTER quality German cylinder cores for type 4 we have thrown in the dumpster over the decades. A lot of people lookong at the crap available now.....wish they had a few of those cores. Ray
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jsturtlebuggy
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 2:57 pm    Post subject: Re: Damaged flywheel question Reply with quote

Yes the ring gear on the flywheel is replaceable.
Mater of fact all VW flywheels can have the ring gear replaced. The 228mm is easier to do as it already a separate part of the flywheel.
The others have to have the ring gear machined off and a new one can be install.

You heat up the ring gear and and slips on and when it cools down it a shrunk fit to the flywheel.
Gene Berg sells ring gears for both 6volt (109 teeth) and 12volt (130 teeth) flywheels with and inside measurement of 9.900".
The 228mm flywheel uses the same size, 130 teeth ring gears as other flywheels using 12volt starters.
I have not measure the extra 228mm flywheel I have to see if it is the same inside dimension as the one Berg sells.

It use to be a common practice years ago to just replace the ring gear on many vehicles flywheels.
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 3:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Damaged flywheel question Reply with quote

jsturtlebuggy wrote:
Yes the ring gear on the flywheel is replaceable.
Mater of fact all VW flywheels can have the ring gear replaced. The 228mm is easier to do as it already a separate part of the flywheel.
The others have to have the ring gear machined off and a new one can be install.

You heat up the ring gear and and slips on and when it cools down it a shrunk fit to the flywheel.
Gene Berg sells ring gears for both 6volt (109 teeth) and 12volt (130 teeth) flywheels with and inside measurement of 9.900".
The 228mm flywheel uses the same size, 130 teeth ring gears as other flywheels using 12volt starters.
I have not measure the extra 228mm flywheel I have to see if it is the same inside dimension as the one Berg sells.

It use to be a common practice years ago to just replace the ring gear on many vehicles flywheels.


Ah!....I get what you mean now! So you machine off the old one.....and shrink on a new one made just for this purpose. Learn something new every day.

This method of attaching ring gears is/was common on some American cars and trucks. They are shrunk on or spot welded from the factory. However I knew that the type 4 ring gear was part of the casting/forging. I didnt know anyone made replacement ring gears for type 4.
Thank you for the information! Ray
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modok
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 4:51 pm    Post subject: Re: Damaged flywheel question Reply with quote

I can see in the picture that that is a separate ring gear.

As a general rule, only STEEL flywheels have integral ring gear teeth.

Most type-4 flywheels are iron, but there were a few steel ones as well in certain models.
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 5:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Damaged flywheel question Reply with quote

modok wrote:
I can see in the picture that that is a separate ring gear.

As a general rule, only STEEL flywheels have integral ring gear teeth.

Most type-4 flywheels are iron, but there were a few steel ones as well in certain models.


Nope....the 210 and 215 both have integral teeth. I am looking at one of each as I type this. They both have integral teeth.....NOT a removeable ring gear. They also look totally different than the 228 in his picture.
And I believe they are cast steel and not cast iron. Also if memory serves...only the 228 on Porsche 914 was forged. I may be wrong on that one.

Here is the front and back of a 215mm type 4 flywheel (which is the same casting as the 210mm)
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


You can clearly see that the teeth are part of the casting. Ray
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modok
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 6:27 pm    Post subject: Re: Damaged flywheel question Reply with quote

If it welds like steel, cuts like steel.....good enough for me.
When making a lamp stand you want a steel one, so you can weld the tube right on it.

Unfortunately the flywheel in question.... nope. Not lamp stand material.
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:34 pm    Post subject: Re: Damaged flywheel question Reply with quote

modok wrote:
If it welds like steel, cuts like steel.....good enough for me.
When making a lamp stand you want a steel one, so you can weld the tube right on it.

Unfortunately the flywheel in question.... nope. Not lamp stand material.


Laughing ...
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furgo
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:24 am    Post subject: Re: Damaged flywheel question Reply with quote

Thanks everyone for the replies, I thought this would be a simple answer, but as usual, I've learnt quite a lot.

Here's the recap as far as I understand it:

Type 4, 228 mm flywheel ring gears would seem to be replaceable. In that case, the old ring gear is removed and the new one is installed. Both are a press fit.
Type 4, 210 mm and 215 mm flywheels have integral ring gears and are thus not replaceable per se. However, as an alternative, the teeth can be machined off and an aftermarket ring gear can be fitted.
Type 4 ring gears have 130 teeth (the "How to rebuild your Volkswagen air-cooled engine" book mistakenly states they have 132 teeth)
Type 4 ring gear replacements are available from Gene Berg in the US and VW Heritage (out of stock) in Europe. They don't specify clearly which flywheel diameter they will fit to, though.

To complement Ray's pictures of his 215 mm Type 4 flywheel, here are some more pictures of my 228 mm damaged one:

Front:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Back:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Unrelated, but I thought I'd mention it, there is a stamped VW "recycled" logo on the flywheel. I've seen such logo stamped on replacement cases, so I'm guessing the meaning is the same and the flywheel was reworked by VW at some point:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I'm not sure if the pictures show it clearly, and even looking at the flywheel on my hands makes it difficult to tell, but it would seem that the ring gear can be removed from my 228 mm flywheel. Unlike Ray's, where it's clear even from the picture that they are an integral part of the flywheel.
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66brm
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 3:31 am    Post subject: Re: Damaged flywheel question Reply with quote

Here's a quick how to, on changing the ring gear, you will need an oxy acetylene set, a good solid cold chisel, a bfh 'big f-------n hammer', and of course a replacement ring gear. Use the oxy set to heat a section of the damaged ring gear to near cherry red, hit the cold chisel between the teeth of the ring gear parallel to the friction face, the bfh is your friend here, you don't have to cut the ring gear but stretch it out till it's loose. Do that 3-4 times evenly spaced around the circumference and the gear should come loose. Then use the oxy set to evenly heat the replacement gear and slip it on the flywheel like you would a cam gear on the crank, give it a tap while hot to ensure its home before letting it cool.
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