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Pan/ Napoleon hat to Body Bolts
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67ctbug
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 11:33 am    Post subject: Pan/ Napoleon hat to Body Bolts Reply with quote

I'm making progress in the resto. I'm trying to bolt the body together and every one of the new bolts fit except the front ones that go through the napoleons hat. They seem way to big to fit and I can't even bolt them done so I'm having trouble getting the body to sit flat. Any one else have this problem? What should I do. They are the deluxe channels from CIP1 and the bolts are new from Johns Car Corner.
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Mike Fisher
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 2:41 pm    Post subject: Re: Pan/ Napoleon hat to Body Bolts Reply with quote

Weld or braze new nuts inside the new heater channels in the correct locations to match John's bolts? Very Happy
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67ctbug
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 2:47 pm    Post subject: Re: Pan/ Napoleon hat to Body Bolts Reply with quote

How would I go about doing that? Is there anything else I could do?
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'67 Beetle L41
'74 Westfalia
'69 Plymouth "Adam-12"
'63 Ragtop
'73 914
'73 Dodge W200
'72 Dodge Wrecker
Go Cubs!
World Series Champions 2016
KentPS wrote:
...or the PO envied the terrorists' bus in "Back to the Future". Laughing

mukluk wrote:
He's fine, just waiting for the dragon in winklepickers to move out of his lane.
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Dodgy
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 1:04 am    Post subject: Re: Pan/ Napoleon hat to Body Bolts Reply with quote

You don't say if you have a Standard or Super. The body construction is a bit different but both have M 10 bolts through the napoleon hat in the floor pan to captive nuts in the front bulkhead in the body. Check alignment before installing the bolts, you should leave all the other bolts loose until all are fitted before tightening, this means you can move the body slightly if necessary.
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67ctbug
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 3:59 am    Post subject: Re: Pan/ Napoleon hat to Body Bolts Reply with quote

It's a '67 standard.
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KentPS wrote:
...or the PO envied the terrorists' bus in "Back to the Future". Laughing

mukluk wrote:
He's fine, just waiting for the dragon in winklepickers to move out of his lane.
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beetlenut
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 5:02 am    Post subject: Re: Pan/ Napoleon hat to Body Bolts Reply with quote

First, during repair, did you test fit the bolts into their captive nut plates to ensure they were the correct ones for that nut plate? Did you secure the nut plates in such a way as they could move side to side, but not move up and down? It should just be a matter of inserting the bolts up through the Napoleon's hat, and locating the threaded nut plates, and getting them started. You may have to jack the front of the car slightly to give you room to move the bolts around to locate the nut plate threads.
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Wetstuff wrote:
... I spend more time shaking it than directing it?! I get a pretty decent blast for 8sec. then have to shake it again.
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67ctbug
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 10:18 am    Post subject: Re: Pan/ Napoleon hat to Body Bolts Reply with quote

Beetlenut, if you are talking about the nuts in the heater channel then they are too small to accept the bolt. The bolts came in a box and the only ones that aren't the 13 mm ones go fine trough the napoleons hat , but they can't go through the nuts in the channel. Currently the channel is bolted to the pan only because I'm replacing them so th old one is gone and the channel is free to move.
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'67 Beetle L41
'74 Westfalia
'69 Plymouth "Adam-12"
'63 Ragtop
'73 914
'73 Dodge W200
'72 Dodge Wrecker
Go Cubs!
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KentPS wrote:
...or the PO envied the terrorists' bus in "Back to the Future". Laughing

mukluk wrote:
He's fine, just waiting for the dragon in winklepickers to move out of his lane.
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beetlenut
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 11:46 am    Post subject: Re: Pan/ Napoleon hat to Body Bolts Reply with quote

67ctbug wrote:
Beetlenut, if you are talking about the nuts in the heater channel then they are too small to accept the bolt. The bolts came in a box and the only ones that aren't the 13 mm ones go fine trough the napoleons hat , but they can't go through the nuts in the channel. Currently the channel is bolted to the pan only because I'm replacing them so th old one is gone and the channel is free to move.


The nut plate for those two Napoleon's hat bolts looks like this:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


For the Supers, that nut plate lives in the bottom corners of the front firewall. For the standard beetles, I think it lives in the front part of the heater channel, or in the space forward of the end of the heater channel. What's directly above the two holes in the end of the Napoleon's hat?
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scrapyards are for quitters
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Wetstuff wrote:
... I spend more time shaking it than directing it?! I get a pretty decent blast for 8sec. then have to shake it again.
- Words to live by right there!

My 74 Super rebuild thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6507104#6507104
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67ctbug
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 11:48 am    Post subject: Re: Pan/ Napoleon hat to Body Bolts Reply with quote

When the body is not on, there is nothing above the two holes. When the body gets set down then its the bottom plate of the heater channel and then inside the channel is the nut plate. The nut plate is unable to be removed without cutting though.
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'67 Beetle L41
'74 Westfalia
'69 Plymouth "Adam-12"
'63 Ragtop
'73 914
'73 Dodge W200
'72 Dodge Wrecker
Go Cubs!
World Series Champions 2016
KentPS wrote:
...or the PO envied the terrorists' bus in "Back to the Future". Laughing

mukluk wrote:
He's fine, just waiting for the dragon in winklepickers to move out of his lane.
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beetlenut
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 12:12 pm    Post subject: Re: Pan/ Napoleon hat to Body Bolts Reply with quote

67ctbug wrote:
When the body is not on, there is nothing above the two holes. When the body gets set down then its the bottom plate of the heater channel and then inside the channel is the nut plate. The nut plate is unable to be removed without cutting though.


Yes the nut plate lives up in the body, like the pic below.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


So when the body is not on, can you thread the two new bolts into that nut plate? If so, then you just need to do that through the bottom of the Napoleon's hat when the body goes back on. If the nut plate is damaged, or those new bolts will not fit, you'll need to replace that nut plate with something new by cutting an access hole into that area from the wheel well side, and welding up once replaced. Those are really your only two options to affect that repair.
_________________
scrapyards are for quitters
---------------------------------------
Wetstuff wrote:
... I spend more time shaking it than directing it?! I get a pretty decent blast for 8sec. then have to shake it again.
- Words to live by right there!

My 74 Super rebuild thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6507104#6507104
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67ctbug
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 12:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Pan/ Napoleon hat to Body Bolts Reply with quote

I can't get the bolt to fit even when the channel is disconnected. I guess i'll have to cut it. Is this a normal problem with these channels?
_________________
'67 Beetle L41
'74 Westfalia
'69 Plymouth "Adam-12"
'63 Ragtop
'73 914
'73 Dodge W200
'72 Dodge Wrecker
Go Cubs!
World Series Champions 2016
KentPS wrote:
...or the PO envied the terrorists' bus in "Back to the Future". Laughing

mukluk wrote:
He's fine, just waiting for the dragon in winklepickers to move out of his lane.
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beetlenut
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 12:30 pm    Post subject: Re: Pan/ Napoleon hat to Body Bolts Reply with quote

67ctbug wrote:
I can't get the bolt to fit even when the channel is disconnected. I guess i'll have to cut it. Is this a normal problem with these channels?



Can you see the nut plate up in there when the body is raised up? Can you see the threaded holes? Yes, usually everything up in there rusts and fuses together into one big blob. Once you cut an access in to that area and get the old nut plate out, you'll more clearly see what you're dealing with. Cut a square opening with the top still attached, and bend the door up to access that area. I ended up making my own nut plates for my problem area.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

_________________
scrapyards are for quitters
---------------------------------------
Wetstuff wrote:
... I spend more time shaking it than directing it?! I get a pretty decent blast for 8sec. then have to shake it again.
- Words to live by right there!

My 74 Super rebuild thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6507104#6507104
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67ctbug
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 12:34 pm    Post subject: Re: Pan/ Napoleon hat to Body Bolts Reply with quote

It's not exactly easy getting under the car now that I've put if back on the chassis, but if I put the bolt through the nap hat, I can find the nut plate. The nap hat and channels are new so no rust. When you say door, do you mean cut the square only on three sides and bend it?
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'67 Beetle L41
'74 Westfalia
'69 Plymouth "Adam-12"
'63 Ragtop
'73 914
'73 Dodge W200
'72 Dodge Wrecker
Go Cubs!
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KentPS wrote:
...or the PO envied the terrorists' bus in "Back to the Future". Laughing

mukluk wrote:
He's fine, just waiting for the dragon in winklepickers to move out of his lane.
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67ctbug
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 1:31 pm    Post subject: Re: Pan/ Napoleon hat to Body Bolts Reply with quote

Well I feel like an idiot. I just got the bolts in by lining it up better Rolling Eyes Brick wall d'oh!
_________________
'67 Beetle L41
'74 Westfalia
'69 Plymouth "Adam-12"
'63 Ragtop
'73 914
'73 Dodge W200
'72 Dodge Wrecker
Go Cubs!
World Series Champions 2016
KentPS wrote:
...or the PO envied the terrorists' bus in "Back to the Future". Laughing

mukluk wrote:
He's fine, just waiting for the dragon in winklepickers to move out of his lane.
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beetlenut
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 6:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Pan/ Napoleon hat to Body Bolts Reply with quote

67ctbug wrote:
Well I feel like an idiot. I just got the bolts in by lining it up better Rolling Eyes Brick wall d'oh!


Better to feel like an idiot and have success, than having another chore standing in your way preventing success. Those floating nut plates can be a pain to locate to get the first bolt started.
_________________
scrapyards are for quitters
---------------------------------------
Wetstuff wrote:
... I spend more time shaking it than directing it?! I get a pretty decent blast for 8sec. then have to shake it again.
- Words to live by right there!

My 74 Super rebuild thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6507104#6507104
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67ctbug
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 7:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Pan/ Napoleon hat to Body Bolts Reply with quote

beetlenut wrote:
Better to feel like an idiot and have success, than having another chore standing in your way preventing success.
Very true, now to solve my body sitting on the pan issue...
_________________
'67 Beetle L41
'74 Westfalia
'69 Plymouth "Adam-12"
'63 Ragtop
'73 914
'73 Dodge W200
'72 Dodge Wrecker
Go Cubs!
World Series Champions 2016
KentPS wrote:
...or the PO envied the terrorists' bus in "Back to the Future". Laughing

mukluk wrote:
He's fine, just waiting for the dragon in winklepickers to move out of his lane.
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67ctbug
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 12:22 pm    Post subject: Re: Pan/ Napoleon hat to Body Bolts Reply with quote

Resurrecting my thread after nearly 1 year dead, the bolts are actually not fitting... I think I'm going to go to the hardware store and get new bolts.
_________________
'67 Beetle L41
'74 Westfalia
'69 Plymouth "Adam-12"
'63 Ragtop
'73 914
'73 Dodge W200
'72 Dodge Wrecker
Go Cubs!
World Series Champions 2016
KentPS wrote:
...or the PO envied the terrorists' bus in "Back to the Future". Laughing

mukluk wrote:
He's fine, just waiting for the dragon in winklepickers to move out of his lane.
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Nickgreen949
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 9:30 am    Post subject: Re: Pan/ Napoleon hat to Body Bolts Reply with quote

Sounds like you’re having the same problem I had with my Klassicfab heater channel. The front ‘captive nut/plate’ was too small to accept the 10mmx1.50 bolts. The smaller 8mm bolts for the rest of the pan were too small and the 10mm bolts were too big. It seemed like it was taped for a 9mm bolt. I ended up drilling them out and taping them to accept the 10x1.50 bolts like the originals. Luckily I caught this before anything was welded so I was able to do it on the bench. Much easier! Especially since you have to hold the plate still while drilling and taping.

Good luck!
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BIGMIKEY
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:55 pm    Post subject: Re: Pan/ Napoleon hat to Body Bolts Reply with quote

To make it easier to start the bolts try threading the stub end of an old bolt into the nut plate. This provides a guide as well as a handle to hold the nut plate steady while you thread in the other bolt.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Mike T
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beetlenut
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 11:21 am    Post subject: Re: Pan/ Napoleon hat to Body Bolts Reply with quote

67ctbug wrote:
Resurrecting my thread after nearly 1 year dead, the bolts are actually not fitting... I think I'm going to go to the hardware store and get new bolts.


So the captive nuts were probably not tapped for 10x1.5 bolts. You can either try and figure out what they are tapped for, and get bolts for that size, or cut out the nut plate and get or make the correct one and put it in. That's why I made mine. I just got some bolts with corresponding nuts. That way I knew they would go together when the time came.
_________________
scrapyards are for quitters
---------------------------------------
Wetstuff wrote:
... I spend more time shaking it than directing it?! I get a pretty decent blast for 8sec. then have to shake it again.
- Words to live by right there!

My 74 Super rebuild thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6507104#6507104
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