starting problems dead battery

[dennisis79]

1968 Ghia, new battery, new plugs, plug wires last fall..had this problem last fall as well. This is the first spring start and I know it takes some time to get it going but this acts like a dead battery and it will just barely turn over on the second attempt.

Checked battery before first attempt has 12.8v, checked after second attempt, had 12.8 volts.

Checked coil across primary winding at 200 ohm setting read 3.0
checked coil secondary resistance at 20k setting read 6.96

Read somewhere readings should be primary at 1.5 to 1.7 and secondary above 11...

Is the coil my problem...

[djkeev]

By "acts like dead battery" you mean that the engine is barely, if at all, rotated by the starter motor?

If so you need to start removing and cleaning wire connections.
First, at the battery
The battery ground at the body
The battery + at the starter
The ground cable from the transmission nose to the body
Remove these one by one and clean with sandpaper and a wire brush until they shine. Clean the contact points where they fasten too.

Ignition switch could be bad (electrical portion)

The starter itself might be bad

Some maintenance and then diagnosis is called for here.
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Ghia
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=392473

Vanagon
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6315537#6315537

Beetle
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=482968&highlight=74+super+vert

[dennisis79]

The car ran well all last summer, trouble started in fall just before I put it away.
1st try motor spins fast enough to start, but does not, because it has been sitting all winter.
2nd try barely turns motor over
I have replaced ignition switch and had cleaned all connections but for transmission and starter.

It acts like it kills the battery and the battery is new last fall and I had it checked at the dealer this week.

This is my 3rd Ghia, I had a 1958 and a 1961 previously.

[djkeev]

A battery that starts spinning the starter strong but then peeters out is often a bad or under charged battery.

Then again, a bad starter can work worse as the internal heat builds up.
Anfew things could be wrong but often it can be that the armature where the brushes ride is burned and black making poor connection. Along with this, the brushes are often burned and worn too.

The starter bushing in the Bell housing if worn will allow the starter armature to drag causing great friction.

The transmission nose ground wire is essential to good starter action.

I've made it a habit to put auto stick starters in my units, removes that starter bushing from the trouble equation.

Dave
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Stop Dead Photo Links how to post photos

Ghia
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=392473

Vanagon
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6315537#6315537

Beetle
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=482968&highlight=74+super+vert

[Eric&Barb]

[dennisis79]

Here I go again.....
Installed new ground wire and wire from battery to starter
New starter, had battery checked! OK, , new clamps on battery post, bypassed ignition switch.....does not even do a rrrr, rrrrr, just clicks the selenoid. HOWEVER, If I turn the engine over by hand it will start , 50 to 60% of the time. Then runs great. When it starts and runs for a while and then I shut it off it will restart maybe 10% of the time.. Any more ideas...

[Eric&Barb]

How about an image of the battery clamp on the positive cable?
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[dennisis79]

[Eric&Barb]

Get rid of that cable. Those quick fix bolt on battery cable clamps are good for the on road repair to get home, but not a long term good part.

WW sells VW factory equivalent battery cables, that have the battery clamps both swedged onto the cable and soldered to make a gas tight and battery acid tight connection, so as not to be able to corrode in the clamp to cable connection.
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[dennisis79]

Do not understand why that would be the problem...
New battery last fall, wintered inside, new clamp last week, new cable today, new starter today, all connections clean, no corrosion

[Eric&Barb]

[Exaktaphile]

Slightly off topic...

My battery died a few months ago so I picked up a 6 volt replacement from NAPA. It barely cranked the starter so I cleaned every connection and still had nothing. A voltmeter revealed that the battery only had 6.1 volts so I returned it.

I went through this same exact process for the second battery! When I returned that one, the counter guy told me my previous "new" batteries were 2 1/2 years old. I asked if they charged/maintained their shelf batteries and got a "no". Sheesh.

After complaining, the store manager checked local stores for a fresh battery and I received one that was dated the same month. The car fired up just like usual. That was a long week.

[djkeev]

The push for a new proper wire is to help you the owner.

Those battery terminals are low budget emergency repair ends.

Corrosion will quickly settle in and the starting /Electrical gremlins along with it.

You are getting good advice, it would be wise to heed it.

Dave
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Stop Dead Photo Links how to post photos

Ghia
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=392473

Vanagon
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6315537#6315537

Beetle
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=482968&highlight=74+super+vert

[VeloMikey]

You need to fully charge the battery to 12.6 volts then load test it. If the battery drops below 9.6 volts then it is no good. As Exaktaphile stated, there is always a chance that your new battery is no good. There is nothing wrong with that cable end as long as you keep it clean and corrosion free. It looks ugly!

You could also install a Ford quick start. Electricity is lazy and there is a lot of resistance in the long wire from the key switch to the starter.
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'58 Ghia 2387cc with a Berg / Folts 5 Speed

Ghia Build Thread https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=768748

[dennisis79]

Thanks for all the suggestion but I am still not going.

This is where I am
No, I did not change the cable, it is new and I know all about green growth.
I had the battery checked and it is fine 650 cranking amps and recovery after load was normal. Still holding 12volts.
Still just getting movement in solenoid but no engagement. Tried 10times with ignition, nothing .....Ran a wire from solenoid to battery to bypass ignition,
Tried 10 times got movement no engagement.
I will take the new starter out and have it checked. As all the wires and connections are good the starter is my last guess.

[VeloMikey]

What do you mean ".....Ran a wire from solenoid to battery to bypass ignition"?

Have you tried to jump the starter with a screw driver? That will tell you if the starter is good.
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'58 Ghia 2387cc with a Berg / Folts 5 Speed

Ghia Build Thread https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=768748

[60ragtop]

Was the starter bushing replaced or are you using a self supporting starter ?
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Rick
Certified Mechanic by the State of Michigan in 1977
ASA certified in 1987
Certified Hunter Wheel Alignment Master Technician 1986

[dennisis79]

Basically it is the same thing. At the starter I disconnect the wire coming from the ignition and connect a wire With the other end connected to the positive side of the battery. I put a switch in the middle! easier to use if you want to try several times to start the car do not have to keep crawling under the car.

[dennisis79]

I replaced the bushing ....

[Exaktaphile]

Give the starter body a solid whack with a hammer and see if that does the trick. I did a 1000 mile Winter trip in a Bus with a sticky solenoid. Every rest stop ended with drawing straws to see who had to climb under the Bus with a hammer, during a blizzard. Roald Amundsen would've been proud. Good times. lol Later we got the starter serviced.