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championbaum
Samba Member
Joined: October 20, 2017
Posts: 91
Location: Texas
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 Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 12:37 pm Post subject: CV Joint Question |
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So I repacked my CV joints, and I had some that were installed originally backwards, with the single line facing the axle and I reinstalled in that manner.
I have since learned that line/groove should be facing away from the axle so I am about to flip the ones incorrectly installed.
Good question my friend who is helping asked, "If it works in reverse, wouldn't it work in drive, so what does it matter?"
I would think its because speeds are lower in reverse and you are in that gear less. But any more intelligent analysis would be appreciated... |
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Randy in Maine
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Joined: August 03, 2003
Posts: 34890
Location: The Beach
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| Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 12:42 pm Post subject: Re: CV Joint Question |
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| You are overthinking this. They just need to fit so that they "flex" like a U joint. |
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championbaum
Samba Member
Joined: October 20, 2017
Posts: 91
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 12:56 pm Post subject: Re: CV Joint Question |
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| Randy in Maine wrote: |
| You are overthinking this. They just need to fit so that they "flex" like a U joint. |
I think that is my buddy's point, he is saying it shouldn't matter which way they are installed as log as they flex, but the joints flex both ways, but the Bentley is saying the groove should be facing away from the axle. He is basically saying there is no need to flip them, but I am inclined to do so based on info from the service manual.
Hope that makes sense... |
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busman78
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Joined: August 17, 2004
Posts: 4522
Location: Oklahoma City, OK
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| Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 3:37 pm Post subject: Re: CV Joint Question |
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| So how long has your friend been involved with VW's, or better yet how many bus CV's has he installed backwards with years of data proving that the manufacturer installation procedures really do not matter. Best not to allow him to hook up the battery for terminal position probably does not matter. |
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Wildthings
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Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50338
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| Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:15 pm Post subject: Re: CV Joint Question |
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The main difference in the CV's as far as which side faces the axle is that on some CV's the CV will have more axial movement in one direction than the other. The difference is minimal, in the range of 3/16-1/4". The factory installation means that the CV will not bind when the axle is horizontal and at its shortest. On any rear engine VW I have messed with there is still always plenty of axial play left in the joints even when the axle is horizontal, so I don't think having the CV installed backwards is a big negative here, while if they are backward then at full droop they are less apt to be extended too far, so here being installed wrong might even be a plus. Personally I have seen a lot of CV installed backwards and have not been able to say it caused any problem at all.
If the cage should contact the axle shaft at full droop, that would be a problem though. How readily this actually happens, I don't know. |
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SGKent 
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Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:29 pm Post subject: Re: CV Joint Question |
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| Tcash wrote: |
CV Joints: Re-pack or Replace?
| Tcash wrote: |
Thanks goes out to All, for the information and pictures. I learned somthing today imagine that. Thanks again!!
Thanks goes out to ratwell for the picture. Original text in black additions in color.
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sjbartnik
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Joined: September 01, 2011
Posts: 5995
Location: Brooklyn
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| Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 6:20 pm Post subject: Re: CV Joint Question |
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| championbaum wrote: |
[
I think that is my buddy's point, he is saying it shouldn't matter which way they are installed as log as they flex, |
This is why people who don't know what they're talking about shouldn't weigh in 
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championbaum
Samba Member
Joined: October 20, 2017
Posts: 91
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 9:59 pm Post subject: Re: CV Joint Question |
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| busman78 wrote: |
| So how long has your friend been involved with VW's, or better yet how many bus CV's has he installed backwards with years of data proving that the manufacturer installation procedures really do not matter. Best not to allow him to hook up the battery for terminal position probably does not matter. |
He is a mechanic, so he has worked on them from time to time, he is a work friend that hears me talk endlessly about my project. He is no expert by any means.
Side note if it wasn't clear, I swapped all the joints in the orientation specified in the Bentley so no worries. I was just trying to get a rebuttal for tomorrow because I am too stupid to come up with one myself... |
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championbaum
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Joined: October 20, 2017
Posts: 91
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 10:07 pm Post subject: Re: CV Joint Question |
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| sjbartnik wrote: |
| championbaum wrote: |
[
I think that is my buddy's point, he is saying it shouldn't matter which way they are installed as log as they flex, |
This is why people who don't know what they're talking about shouldn't weigh in |
Well it did get me thinking about it, I went through the effort to put them in the position specified in the Bentley, but while I had them off I tried to see if there was any difference and for the life of me could not see any difference. They seemed to flex the same either way. They seemed to extend the same distance both ways, so what is the significance of installing them with the single groove away from the axle is what I was trying to figure out. Just a stupid OCD bug in my mind now... |
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championbaum
Samba Member
Joined: October 20, 2017
Posts: 91
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 10:14 pm Post subject: Re: CV Joint Question |
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| SGKent wrote: |
| Tcash wrote: |
CV Joints: Re-pack or Replace?
| Tcash wrote: |
Thanks goes out to All, for the information and pictures. I learned somthing today imagine that. Thanks again!!
Thanks goes out to ratwell for the picture. Original text in black additions in color.
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Thanks Tcash, I had one joint that style and the rest were the single groove style ones. All is good, every thing is installed according to spec, I was just trying to figure out the difference between that orientation and reverse, they seemed to be identical either way in terms of how they flexed, mainly so I could roast my coworker in the morning.
I actually printed that exact pic out before I did the work the second time... |
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championbaum
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Joined: October 20, 2017
Posts: 91
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 10:21 pm Post subject: Re: CV Joint Question |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
The main difference in the CV's as far as which side faces the axle is that on some CV's the CV will have more axial movement in one direction than the other. The difference is minimal, in the range of 3/16-1/4". The factory installation means that the CV will not bind when the axle is horizontal and at its shortest. On any rear engine VW I have messed with there is still always plenty of axial play left in the joints even when the axle is horizontal, so I don't think having the CV installed backwards is a big negative here, while if they are backward then at full droop they are less apt to be extended too far, so here being installed wrong might even be a plus. Personally I have seen a lot of CV installed backwards and have not been able to say it caused any problem at all.
If the cage should contact the axle shaft at full droop, that would be a problem though. How readily this actually happens, I don't know. |
Ya thats why I flipped the 2 that were backwards because I was worried maybe they would extend further and the axle would contact the dish on the wheel or transmission, but I can't say it would or not. That is exactly what I was looking for though, the range of movement is actually different according to what you are saying, it is just slight. Thank you!
Edit: Just realized what you are saying about if they were installed backward they would extend less and possibly be less likely to contact the cage and be a possible positive aspect, so my coworker may be right... damnit. |
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50338
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| Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 10:45 pm Post subject: Re: CV Joint Question |
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| championbaum wrote: |
| Wildthings wrote: |
The main difference in the CV's as far as which side faces the axle is that on some CV's the CV will have more axial movement in one direction than the other. The difference is minimal, in the range of 3/16-1/4". The factory installation means that the CV will not bind when the axle is horizontal and at its shortest. On any rear engine VW I have messed with there is still always plenty of axial play left in the joints even when the axle is horizontal, so I don't think having the CV installed backwards is a big negative here, while if they are backward then at full droop they are less apt to be extended too far, so here being installed wrong might even be a plus. Personally I have seen a lot of CV installed backwards and have not been able to say it caused any problem at all.
If the cage should contact the axle shaft at full droop, that would be a problem though. How readily this actually happens, I don't know. |
Ya thats why I flipped the 2 that were backwards because I was worried maybe they would extend further and the axle would contact the dish on the wheel or transmission, but I can't say it would or not. That is exactly what I was looking for though, the range of movement is actually different according to what you are saying, it is just slight. Thank you!
Edit: Just realized what you are saying about if they were installed backward they would extend less and possibly be less likely to contact the cage and be a possible positive aspect, so my coworker may be right... damnit. |
Never really understood why they don't make the cages symmetrical, seems like this would reduce the chance of them being assembled incorrectly at the factory. The bevel on the splines of the inner race is of little or no importance once the spring washer is removed and tossed into the trash as per the service bulletin from VW. |
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Amskeptic
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Joined: October 18, 2002
Posts: 8568
Location: All Across The Country
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| Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 10:48 pm Post subject: Re: CV Joint Question |
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| championbaum wrote: |
| Ya thats why I flipped the 2 that were backwards because I was worried maybe they would extend further and the axle would contact the dish on the wheel or transmission, but I can't say it would or not. |
If you look closely at the edges of the cage, you will see that one edge has a chamfered edge, and the other one does not. If you look closely at the outer hub, it has a chamfered inside edge, and if you look closely at the inner hub, it has a different radius on its outer profile to allow the cage to operate at a sharper angle. That is what all of this orientation is about, to allow the greatest possible articulation angles.
The axle floats axially. There is nothing stopping it from ramming into the "dish" in the transaxle or stub axle flanges. It chooses not to. Nothing in the profiles of the CV parts prevents axial movement. The chamfered edges just make sure that operating angles do not allow any contact between the hubs and cages.
The thrust surface in the above photo/text illustration is not really a chamfer. It is a little ledge. Think of a countersunk screw hole. It has a beveled edge. THAT is the chamfer you can barely see on the edge of the cage on one side.
Colin
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championbaum
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Joined: October 20, 2017
Posts: 91
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 12:32 am Post subject: Re: CV Joint Question |
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| Amskeptic wrote: |
| championbaum wrote: |
| Ya thats why I flipped the 2 that were backwards because I was worried maybe they would extend further and the axle would contact the dish on the wheel or transmission, but I can't say it would or not. |
If you look closely at the edges of the cage, you will see that one edge has a chamfered edge, and the other one does not. If you look closely at the outer hub, it has a chamfered inside edge, and if you look closely at the inner hub, it has a different radius on its outer profile to allow the cage to operate at a sharper angle. That is what all of this orientation is about, to allow the greatest possible articulation angles.
The axle floats axially. There is nothing stopping it from ramming into the "dish" in the transaxle or stub axle flanges. It chooses not to. Nothing in the profiles of the CV parts prevents axial movement. The chamfered edges just make sure that operating angles do not allow any contact between the hubs and cages.
The thrust surface in the above photo/text illustration is not really a chamfer. It is a little ledge. Think of a countersunk screw hole. It has a beveled edge. THAT is the chamfer you can barely see on the edge of the cage on one side.
Colin |
Ooh thank you, next time I clean/replace them I’ll have to look for that chamfered edge. That would make sense. So does the opposite side have a straight up right angle as the edge? I’d look myself but removing/installing them 2 times in 2 days is enough for me. It must be tiny because I was really looking for differences between the 2 sides, or I’m proving to be an idiot which is pretty much established.
Good analogy on the countersunk screw, that is a good reference. |
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busman78
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Joined: August 17, 2004
Posts: 4522
Location: Oklahoma City, OK
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| Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 4:41 am Post subject: Re: CV Joint Question |
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Posted these on this site back in 2010
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championbaum
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Joined: October 20, 2017
Posts: 91
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 7:32 am Post subject: Re: CV Joint Question |
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| Busman78, awesome, that makes sense with the pics. I had one joint this style, but I bet the single groove style ones are the same. Little stuff like that is easy to overlook I guess. |
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Kiwi1966
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Joined: August 18, 2009
Posts: 168
Location: Ohoka New Zealand
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| Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 4:09 am Post subject: Re: CV Joint Question |
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Hi
Just read this post a couple of days after doing my cvs.Thankfully have not fitted them to the bus yet😁- looks like I will be pulling them apart again as I have put the single groove towards the flange ( the way the old ones were) going by the post I should have the three grooves towards the gearbox/ axle flanges- is this correct.I assembled the cage and inner drive piece as per this post
Thanks |
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championbaum
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Joined: October 20, 2017
Posts: 91
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 2:23 pm Post subject: Re: CV Joint Question |
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| Kiwi1966 wrote: |
Hi
Just read this post a couple of days after doing my cvs.Thankfully have not fitted them to the bus yet😁- looks like I will be pulling them apart again as I have put the single groove towards the flange ( the way the old ones were) going by the post I should have the three grooves towards the gearbox/ axle flanges- is this correct.I assembled the cage and inner drive piece as per this post
Thanks |
Hey my stupid post may have helped! Ya thats the way I understand it. I had one the same style as you there, and I installed it with the single line towards the shaft. My other 3 were the style with the single groove, installed away from the shaft. |
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SGKent
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Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 2:31 pm Post subject: Re: CV Joint Question |
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look at the outer and inner hubs, look at the cage. The chamfers etc have to match the photo. Don't just look at the lines.
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AhnwS71
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Joined: January 31, 2018
Posts: 215
Location: Huntsville, AL
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| Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 2:16 pm Post subject: Re: CV Joint Question |
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I am repacking the CV joints. But I noticed that my ball hub does not have a campher edge, just a line etched into it. Which way does the etched line side face axle or tire?
Also the cage has a flat edge and a beveled edge. Which side does the flat edge face axle or tire?
[img]
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