| Author |
Message |
RalphWiggam
Samba Member
Joined: February 02, 2018
Posts: 906
Location: SouthEast
|
 Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:23 am Post subject: Re: Sealing rings at top/bottom of cylinders |
 |
|
| raygreenwood wrote: |
| RalphWiggam wrote: |
My stock aluminum pushrods are too long.
So step one is to set all of the swivel feet 2.5 turns off of bottoming out? Is that a good number? |
Yes.....but wait..... I was going off of memory here so lets check this.
Take a quick moment to set up a dial indicator on one of the screws that is backed all the way out to binding on the underside of the rocker arm.....and then move the screw inward by 2.5 turns and look at the total amount of adjustment it gives you. It should give you about .012" of outward adjustment. So that is about .0048" per complete turn.
This number of turns inward.... also needs to give you enough space.... IN ADDITION to the .006" you use for valve adjustment.....for about .002" for break in wear and valve stem stretch. There will be a couple of thousandths. So you need about 0.020"....to allow some adjusting over the miles ....and have free movement of swivel feet.
0.020"÷ .0048"= 4.1 turns.
So.....in thinking about this.....and yes....I had to dig into my black notebook.....  ....  ....sorry.....you need a minimum of 3.5 turns and right at 4 turns will be spot on.
Sorry....I was out on the road and did not have my books in front or me.
Do 4 turns....at most....4.5.....and check your pushrods now. You can go to 5.0.....but do not get much more extended past 4.5.
From my note book the problem with getting too much inward thread extension is that can negatively affect valve geometry....if your valve stem heights are right at factory.....and cause you to need excessive rocker stand shimmimg.....and it side loads the adjusting screw.
My apologies for the memory fail. Ray |
No problem. That makes sense to me. I will adjust the tips 4 turns out from bottom and adjust the pushrod to that point. Thanks. I think Ill go ahead and order the spacer kit just in case. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21512
Location: Oklahoma City
|
| Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 9:28 am Post subject: Re: Sealing rings at top/bottom of cylinders |
|
|
Yes....what you really want to do is hopefully to have to not use more than the thinnest shims in the kit.
Whose shim kit are you buying? Is it made for type 4? The problem years ago was that the shims were shaped for type 1 rockers and were usually too large in OD and needed to be trimmed. Ray |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
RalphWiggam
Samba Member
Joined: February 02, 2018
Posts: 906
Location: SouthEast
|
| Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:51 am Post subject: Re: Sealing rings at top/bottom of cylinders |
|
|
| raygreenwood wrote: |
Yes....what you really want to do is hopefully to have to not use more than the thinnest shims in the kit.
Whose shim kit are you buying? Is it made for type 4? The problem years ago was that the shims were shaped for type 1 rockers and were usually too large in OD and needed to be trimmed. Ray |
This one from EMW:
http://www.europeanmotorworks.com/pvw/054-638/type-4-rocker-arms/Rocker+Arm+Geometry+Shim+Kit
Should be here Friday or Saturday hopefully. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
airschooled
Air-Schooled
Joined: April 04, 2012
Posts: 12721
Location: on a bike ride somewhere
|
| Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 11:35 am Post subject: Re: Sealing rings at top/bottom of cylinders |
|
|
Of course trimming might require dressing the cut edges- but there was a lot of T1 shims a few years back that were smaller than the rocker pedestals. I would much prefer to trim down a set than run a set too small...
Robbie
_________________
Learn how your vintage VW works. And why it doesn't!
One-on-one tech help for your Volkswagen:
www.airschooled.com |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
RalphWiggam
Samba Member
Joined: February 02, 2018
Posts: 906
Location: SouthEast
|
| Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 6:47 pm Post subject: Re: Sealing rings at top/bottom of cylinders |
|
|
I got the adjustable pushrod sized to 0 clearance when the swivel feet adjusters are turned 4 turns out from bottoming out in the rockers. I had some old washers left over from my new arp replacements so I decided to throw a couple under the stands to get an idea of what size spacers I will need.
It turns out I will need about .15" worth of spacers under the rocker stands to get the swivel foot adjuster parallel to the valve at half lift. This seems like a lot to me. All 3 of the spacer sizes I ordered (.015, .030, .060) stacked up won't even give me the height I need. Is it bad to stack rocker shims? Do I need to get single shims custom made or dId I do something wrong to require this much spacing?
Edit...case was decked and the heads were flycut might explain this?..? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21512
Location: Oklahoma City
|
| Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:43 pm Post subject: Re: Sealing rings at top/bottom of cylinders |
|
|
| RalphWiggam wrote: |
I got the adjustable pushrod sized to 0 clearance when the swivel feet adjusters are turned 4 turns out from bottoming out in the rockers. I had some old washers left over from my new arp replacements so I decided to throw a couple under the stands to get an idea of what size spacers I will need.
It turns out I will need about .15" worth of spacers under the rocker stands to get the swivel foot adjuster parallel to the valve at half lift. This seems like a lot to me. All 3 of the spacer sizes I ordered (.015, .030, .060) stacked up won't even give me the height I need. Is it bad to stack rocker shims? Do I need to get single shims custom made or dId I do something wrong to require this much spacing?
Edit...case was decked and the heads were flycut might explain this?..? |
Yes sir....that explains it.
Its really kind of hard to see the exact position, angle and axis of the swivel foot on the valve tip...because the foot is so side.
I have a method I use....its kind of unorthodox....but its also kind of idiot proof.
So you now know the length from the face of the swivel foot to the underside of the r9 ker arm....at TDC valve closed....right?
So pull the rocker shaft assembly off and with a fine point sharpy....draw a vertical and horizontal line on the tip of the valve stem.....and a line on each side of the vertical line...right about 1mm to each side.
Then take an 8mm x1.25 bolt....and put it in a drill and make a perfectly centered point with a 45° angle on one end with a file and sandpaper.
Put that into the rocker arm in place of the swivel foot. This is a little better with a low tenaion checking spring installed in place of the valve spring (you can get somethkkng thwt works at home depot)....but it will work with a type 4 valve spring. Just use a class 10.9 or 12.9 bolt.
Make sure that the same amount of bolt...to the point...protrudes underneath the rocker arm.
What this does is give you a VERY accurate pointer on the valve tip to show EXACTLY where on the valve centerline axis vertically...the centerline of the adjuster screw is at half lift....AND....it shows exaftly how far off center laterally the centerline of the adjuster screw is...so you can adjust your rocker shaft shims and spacers.
So at half lift....park the point of that 8mm screw dead on the horizontal centerline of the valve tip.....and about .75 to 1.0mm off to one side or the other. Do this...by means of adjustong the length of the adjustable pushrod.
Check all 8 valves at half lift. Yes....its tedious.....but it gets you spot on. If all of the valves can use the same pushrod length without being more than about .015" off on the horizontal valve tip centerline......have those made.....or....buy a good thickwall aluminum PR kit from Manton or another PR company...or use a chromoly kit from the type 4 store.
But with a DIY kit....you have to have a method of precison cutting...and set up a rig with a PFESS.....to install the tips. Itw almost as cheap to just have them made. Ray |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
RalphWiggam
Samba Member
Joined: February 02, 2018
Posts: 906
Location: SouthEast
|
| Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 5:07 am Post subject: Re: Sealing rings at top/bottom of cylinders |
|
|
I was intending on using the chromoly pushrod set I got from the t4s. With those I should set valve lash to 0 correct? So should I take .006 off the calculation you used to determine 4 turns out? At .0048 per turn, that would put me back at 2.8-3 turns out of the swivel feet from bottoming in the rockers?
Is it OK to stack stand shims or should I try and get some custom made? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21512
Location: Oklahoma City
|
| Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 8:34 am Post subject: Re: Sealing rings at top/bottom of cylinders |
|
|
| RalphWiggam wrote: |
I was intending on using the chromoly pushrod set I got from the t4s. With those I should set valve lash to 0 correct? So should I take .006 off the calculation you used to determine 4 turns out? At .0048 per turn, that would put me back at 2.8-3 turns out of the swivel feet from bottoming in the rockers?
Is it OK to stack stand shims or should I try and get some custom made? |
I try not to stack the stand shims.....but sometimes you have to. I have found that the more you stack shims up...each having some +/- tolerance....if for no other reason than less than perfect flatness.....it gets the rocker shaft out of plane by a small amount.
You can do perfectly well by lapping them a little, cleaning them well and clamping them tight to measure them.
The chromoly PRs are excellent. But....the trick is getting exact length, perfectly square cuts.
In past discussions....arrow cutters work well or a chop saw with a new, accurate, thin cut off blade....but you need to spend a little time making an angle iron jig that is clamped down and aligned perfectly square to the cut off wheel blade.
Then deburr them carefully. Pressing the ends in.....and you WILL need a press to do it right with no risk of screwing any up........you can take a piece of angle iron and clamp 3 pushrods into the corner of it to hold it steady. The one you are pressing in will be in the apex of the 3. Then put an old lifter at the bottom under the PR as backing and another at the top as a pusher mandrel. Tap with a soft mallet to get the new end started straight.
Make sure the clamping rig is as vertical as possible and press the end in slowly. Ray |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Volswagon
Samba Member
Joined: December 29, 2009
Posts: 299
Location: Knoxville, TN
|
| Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 4:01 pm Post subject: Re: Sealing rings at top/bottom of cylinders |
|
|
I'm right here with you Ralph.
The solid spacers with the kit fit these 1.8L rockers perfectly, but for now I'm using stock pushrods and adjusters since the heads have seen them already. Len and Jake taught me a lot on those issues. I ran the numbers on mine at the time, and not wanting two lengths, they were close enough to stock for me.
My deck was too deep last build. I had no internet there.
Ray, as usual, you inspire me. Since Jake got out, you're the best resource of his work on here.
I have Scat CM pushrods for the Ghia motor but didn't have a clue how to size, PRESS and run them. Glad I put that one off until later. TYVM.
My build has been put back due to a broken oil ring or I'd be built already. Something else to break in now. Or never, I'm not trying this again, last one.
Going with Heritage UK, the only new 93 P&L's I found.
_________________
I know the pieces fit, cos I watched them fall away.
Wanna hear God laugh? Just talk about your plans.
'75 Bus https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=697183&highlight= |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
RalphWiggam
Samba Member
Joined: February 02, 2018
Posts: 906
Location: SouthEast
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 3:25 pm Post subject: Re: Sealing rings at top/bottom of cylinders |
|
|
Got a lot done. Ended up stacking all 3 rocker base shims under the rockers. This gave me near perfect rocker geometry with 3ish turns out from bottom on all of the swivel feet adjusters.
Check your washers that come in the solid rocker spacer kits. Mine looked like this (no bueno). Polished mine with 400 and 1500.
Got my pushrods all cut perfectly with my chopsaw and brought to match with my bench grinder.
Tins going on and adjusting everything
New mounts. Powder/ceramic coated most everything.
Anndddddd.....
Looks kind of mean. Have a good sunday folks. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Volswagon
Samba Member
Joined: December 29, 2009
Posts: 299
Location: Knoxville, TN
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 6:41 pm Post subject: Re: Sealing rings at top/bottom of cylinders |
|
|
Beautiful work Ralph. Need to cover those spark plug holes;)
Happy Earth Day!
_________________
I know the pieces fit, cos I watched them fall away.
Wanna hear God laugh? Just talk about your plans.
'75 Bus https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=697183&highlight= |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Busstom
Samba Member
Joined: November 23, 2014
Posts: 3841
Location: San Jose, CA
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 9:27 pm Post subject: Re: Sealing rings at top/bottom of cylinders |
|
|
| Awesome clean. You clearly inherited your dad's trait of going all the way. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
RalphWiggam
Samba Member
Joined: February 02, 2018
Posts: 906
Location: SouthEast
|
| Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 6:51 am Post subject: Re: Sealing rings at top/bottom of cylinders |
|
|
My thermostat failed the boiling water test so now I am on the hunt for a new one before I can install the 1/2 side exhaust. The plugs are in loosely. I was using the plug holes to view TDC on the cylinders when doing the valve geometry.
I think Im ready to put the distributor in now. My endplay still measures a perfect .004". Who has a foolproof procedure for dropping in the distibutor drive gear when everything is installed? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Volswagon
Samba Member
Joined: December 29, 2009
Posts: 299
Location: Knoxville, TN
|
| Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 7:10 am Post subject: Re: Sealing rings at top/bottom of cylinders |
|
|
Bummer, best I can do is quote the Bentley manual.
_________________
I know the pieces fit, cos I watched them fall away.
Wanna hear God laugh? Just talk about your plans.
'75 Bus https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=697183&highlight= |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Xevin 
Samba Member
Joined: January 08, 2014
Posts: 7624
|
| Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 7:19 am Post subject: Re: Sealing rings at top/bottom of cylinders |
|
|
Looking good.
http://www.awesomepowdercoat.com/thermostat_new_used_rebuilt.html
_________________
Keep on Busin'
| 67rustavenger wrote: |
GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo!  |
| Clatter wrote: |
| Damn that Xevin... |
| skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
I respect Xevin and he's a turd  |
| SGKent wrote: |
My God! Xevin and I 100% agree  |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21512
Location: Oklahoma City
|
| Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 7:51 am Post subject: Re: Sealing rings at top/bottom of cylinders |
|
|
Very nice!
Ray |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
RalphWiggam
Samba Member
Joined: February 02, 2018
Posts: 906
Location: SouthEast
|
| Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 9:10 am Post subject: Re: Sealing rings at top/bottom of cylinders |
|
|
I've been searching around and cant find much regarding how to properly install the distributor driver gear with the engine all together.
What I have found:
1. Set engine to TDC for cylinder #1
2. Put thick grease on the washer
3. Put chopstick in center of gear landing and drop washer in over the chopstick
4. Know that the drive gear will rotate when installing
5. Now what??
6. ????
6. Drive gear should be 12deg from parallel to the front pulley when at TDC.
Any tips on where to start with the gear index so I end up at 12deg after fully seating? How much will it rotate? I am deathly afraid of losing that washer in the crankcase and would love to drop the gear right the first time. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
SGKent
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
|
| Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 9:40 am Post subject: Re: Sealing rings at top/bottom of cylinders |
|
|
the nose of the gear will engage the race, and hold the washer as long as you don't pull it out any further than to rotate it. Don't use the magnet like you did last time. Use something more stable. I use snap ring pliers.
_________________
“Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
furgo
Samba Member
Joined: September 06, 2016
Posts: 944
Location: Southern Germany
|
| Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 12:17 pm Post subject: Re: Sealing rings at top/bottom of cylinders |
|
|
| RalphWiggam wrote: |
I've been searching around and cant find much regarding how to properly install the distributor driver gear with the engine all together.
What I have found:
1. Set engine to TDC for cylinder #1
2. Put thick grease on the washer
3. Put chopstick in center of gear landing and drop washer in over the chopstick
4. Know that the drive gear will rotate when installing
5. Now what??
6. ????
6. Drive gear should be 12deg from parallel to the front pulley when at TDC.
Any tips on where to start with the gear index so I end up at 12deg after fully seating? How much will it rotate? I am deathly afraid of losing that washer in the crankcase and would love to drop the gear right the first time. |
I've done it a few times recently, it's not as scary as it seems the first time. As you already know, just bear in mind the washer. That said, I've found that with grease and a magnet the washer holds pretty well. Unlike your step #2, in my case I did not drop the washer onto its seat, it was instead attached to the drive with the grease/magnet.
As per the tool, I used mainly a strong magnet with roughly the same diameter as the recess in the middle of the drive gear, so it fits snuggly there. I also used a wooden dowel with the right diameter as an alternative, but it didn't work as well as the magnet.
I didn't try snap pliers as per SGKent's suggestion (which would be similar to the tool VW used for this), but the magnet worked well for me. YMMV.
In case you don't engage it right at 12° the first time, you can lift it a bit until the gears disengage and then correct the rotation. Once you lift it, the drive gear does rotate a bit, but if you do it with care, you definitely feel the point where they disengage and where you engage the next tooth.
The positions are also obvious: they are 30° spaced, so if you're not at 12°, you'll see it straight away. I've been looking at distributors and timing with my spare parts recently, so if it helps, I could shoot a quick video of how I did it (it'd have to be tomorrow, though).
_________________
'79 Westy, P22 interior, FI 2.0 l Federal, GE engine (hydraulic lifters)
Decode your M-Plate |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
RalphWiggam
Samba Member
Joined: February 02, 2018
Posts: 906
Location: SouthEast
|
| Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 12:35 pm Post subject: Re: Sealing rings at top/bottom of cylinders |
|
|
| furgo wrote: |
| RalphWiggam wrote: |
I've been searching around and cant find much regarding how to properly install the distributor driver gear with the engine all together.
What I have found:
1. Set engine to TDC for cylinder #1
2. Put thick grease on the washer
3. Put chopstick in center of gear landing and drop washer in over the chopstick
4. Know that the drive gear will rotate when installing
5. Now what??
6. ????
6. Drive gear should be 12deg from parallel to the front pulley when at TDC.
Any tips on where to start with the gear index so I end up at 12deg after fully seating? How much will it rotate? I am deathly afraid of losing that washer in the crankcase and would love to drop the gear right the first time. |
I've done it a few times recently, it's not as scary as it seems the first time. As you already know, just bear in mind the washer. That said, I've found that with grease and a magnet the washer holds pretty well. Unlike your step #2, in my case I did not drop the washer onto its seat, it was instead attached to the drive with the grease/magnet.
As per the tool, I used mainly a strong magnet with roughly the same diameter as the recess in the middle of the drive gear, so it fits snuggly there. I also used a wooden dowel with the right diameter as an alternative, but it didn't work as well as the magnet.
I didn't try snap pliers as per SGKent's suggestion (which would be similar to the tool VW used for this), but the magnet worked well for me. YMMV.
In case you don't engage it right at 12° the first time, you can lift it a bit until the gears disengage and then correct the rotation. Once you lift it, the drive gear does rotate a bit, but if you do it with care, you definitely feel the point where they disengage and where you engage the next tooth.
The positions are also obvious: they are 30° spaced, so if you're not at 12°, you'll see it straight away. I've been looking at distributors and timing with my spare parts recently, so if it helps, I could shoot a quick video of how I did it (it'd have to be tomorrow, though). |
So it is better to "stick" the washer to the drive gear with grease than the case landing?
Here is a pic from Ratwells site:
If the clamp stud is 12 o'clock do you happen to remember the approximate index where you started the drive gear to end up at 12deg? Would it be ~ 30deg back from that 12deg location? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
