Author |
Message |
crankbait09 Samba Member
Joined: October 10, 2016 Posts: 1299 Location: Cincinnati, Ohio
|
Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2018 3:45 pm Post subject: Rear bearing/oil seal issues |
|
|
If you have followed any of my latest threads about the rear bearing seal cover bolt, you can see the history up to date.
This is now another issue with the same wheel.
When I received the vehicle over a month ago, the PO told me the wheel cylinder was shot. Which it was. So after replacing the cylinder, and brake shoes, I decided to go a little further and pull the rear seal. I wasn't feeling warm and fuzzy about all the moisture on the backing plate. So I pulled the seal, the spacer, small o-ring, and the shim. I did not see the large o-ring at all, so I figured it might have been still in place, and not in pieces. I replaced the shim, small o-ring, rear seal, and the spacer. I had no leaking and figured all was well.
Proceeded to drain the transmission fluid. Refilled, and buttoned up. I was closing up all the wheels after bleeding the brakes, and saw a drip coming out of the brake drum.
The oil was coming out of the oil deflector hole in the drum. At least that was working
So I pulled the drum back off and had a looksy. Just a few turns of the drum, has oil all over the new brake shoes.......again. sigh.......Luckily I have another set of new rear shoes that I can put on.
I can see the oil coming out from behind the spacer, between it and the black seal. The seal is all the way in, It is flush with the seal cover. I see no defects at all, but it's leaking quickly.
Once I pull that seal, it's gonna pour out oil. I am not sure what I did or did not do correctly. Obviously I will need to pull that seal and have a look, but I am not sure what I will be looking for. I only replaced the small o-ring, and shim. Could it be the larger o-ring that I failed to see? I did not remove the seal cover. Only addressed the center pieces
Here is a picture as of right now, but I don't think it will tell you much.
Only solution is to redo the rear seal, right
_________________ 1963 Ragtop |
|
Back to top |
|
|
crankbait09 Samba Member
Joined: October 10, 2016 Posts: 1299 Location: Cincinnati, Ohio
|
Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2018 6:26 pm Post subject: Re: Rear bearing/oil seal issues |
|
|
I guess I'm asking, How far should I tear this rear seal apart? Should the cover be removed, or is the problem with what I replaced? _________________ 1963 Ragtop |
|
Back to top |
|
|
rcroane Samba Member
Joined: January 03, 2013 Posts: 1996 Location: Springfield, Virginia
|
Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2018 7:06 pm Post subject: Re: Rear bearing/oil seal issues |
|
|
Not certain, but I wonder if the fact that you re-installed the original seal has something to do with it? You might have compromised the edge of the seal when removing it, allowing fluid to escape.
If it were me, I'd get a rear seal kit from WW and replace all the components (they're cheap!). _________________ '65 Sunroof Bug |
|
Back to top |
|
|
crankbait09 Samba Member
Joined: October 10, 2016 Posts: 1299 Location: Cincinnati, Ohio
|
Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2018 7:09 pm Post subject: Re: Rear bearing/oil seal issues |
|
|
That's a new seal.
The items I replaced with new were the small o-ring, the shim, and the black seal. I didn't touch anything else.
Now I guess it's possible that I jacked up the seal when hammering it in. It certainly wasn't obvious.
When I went back out to look at it, the oil is actually coming out of the center, where the shaft and center spacer is. The ribs on the spindles /axle are filled with oil _________________ 1963 Ragtop |
|
Back to top |
|
|
rcroane Samba Member
Joined: January 03, 2013 Posts: 1996 Location: Springfield, Virginia
|
Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2018 7:19 pm Post subject: Re: Rear bearing/oil seal issues |
|
|
I suspect it's the o-rings. Either the large one is worn out or possibly the small one was twisted when installed. _________________ '65 Sunroof Bug |
|
Back to top |
|
|
crankbait09 Samba Member
Joined: October 10, 2016 Posts: 1299 Location: Cincinnati, Ohio
|
Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2018 7:22 pm Post subject: Re: Rear bearing/oil seal issues |
|
|
And from what I can tell, the small o-ring holds the center shim in place. Then it's followed by the spacer _________________ 1963 Ragtop |
|
Back to top |
|
|
rcooled Samba Member
Joined: September 20, 2008 Posts: 2493 Location: Santa Cruz, CA
|
Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2018 7:30 pm Post subject: Re: Rear bearing/oil seal issues |
|
|
crankbait09 wrote: |
I am not sure what I did or did not do correctly. |
It's usually best to mount the drums, then torque the axle nuts to spec before filling the transaxle with oil. That small o-ring needs to be squeezed tightly to seal properly. And yes, you should've replaced both o-rings while you were in there. The large o-ring can easily be damaged if it gets squished into the tiny space between the bearing and the housing. _________________ '63 Ragtop (current)
'65 Ghia coupe (totaled)
'67 Ghia convertible (current)
'69.5 Ghia convertible and
'62, '63, '65, '69 Bugs (all long gone) |
|
Back to top |
|
|
rcroane Samba Member
Joined: January 03, 2013 Posts: 1996 Location: Springfield, Virginia
|
Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2018 7:49 pm Post subject: Re: Rear bearing/oil seal issues |
|
|
rcooled wrote: |
crankbait09 wrote: |
I am not sure what I did or did not do correctly. |
It's usually best to mount the drums, then torque the axle nuts to spec before filling the transaxle with oil. That small o-ring needs to be squeezed tightly to seal properly. And yes, you should've replaced both o-rings while you were in there. The large o-ring can easily be damaged if it gets squished into the tiny space between the bearing and the housing. |
rcooled is correct..... I completely missed that you refilled your gear oil before reinstalling the drum and axle nut. I still think I would go in and replace the large o ring at this point. And you'll likely need to top off your gear oil once you get it all buttoned up. _________________ '65 Sunroof Bug |
|
Back to top |
|
|
crankbait09 Samba Member
Joined: October 10, 2016 Posts: 1299 Location: Cincinnati, Ohio
|
Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 3:53 am Post subject: Re: Rear bearing/oil seal issues |
|
|
Can the large o-ring be changed while the cover is in place, or does that have to come off in order to get to it? _________________ 1963 Ragtop |
|
Back to top |
|
|
rcroane Samba Member
Joined: January 03, 2013 Posts: 1996 Location: Springfield, Virginia
|
Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 4:58 am Post subject: Re: Rear bearing/oil seal issues |
|
|
The bearing cover has to come off to access the large o ring. The o ring sits on the outside of the bearing. Also, when re-installing the bearing cover, put the spacer inside the bearing cover first and then slide it on the axle. Make sure the chamfered edge of the spacer is facing inward so it seats up against the small o ring. _________________ '65 Sunroof Bug |
|
Back to top |
|
|
crankbait09 Samba Member
Joined: October 10, 2016 Posts: 1299 Location: Cincinnati, Ohio
|
Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 5:02 am Post subject: Re: Rear bearing/oil seal issues |
|
|
ok. so there is possibly a good chance that larger o-ring was ruined who knows how long ago. but since i didnt remove that cover, i wouldn't have known. hmmm
ok, i'll tear that apart today. the bug me video shows removal of that cover. have zero fait in it working, but i have been wrong before _________________ 1963 Ragtop |
|
Back to top |
|
|
andk5591 Samba Member
Joined: August 29, 2005 Posts: 16754 Location: State College, PA
|
Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 5:10 am Post subject: Re: Rear bearing/oil seal issues |
|
|
Couple things - get a jack under that and raise it up as high as you can. I regularly change the seals without draining the transaxle. And I have never just replaced an O-ring or axle seal. I do it all at one time.
And last - it has already been said. It wont seal until you torque down the drum. _________________ D-Dubya Manx clone - 63 Short pan,1914.
Rosie 65 bug - My mostly stock daily driver.
Woodie 69 VW woodie (Hot VWs 7/12).
"John's car" 64 VW woodie - The first ever
Maxine 61 Cal-look bug - Cindy's daily driver.
Max - 73 standard Beetle hearse project - For sale
66 bug project - Real patina & Suby conversion
There's more, but not keeping them... |
|
Back to top |
|
|
crankbait09 Samba Member
Joined: October 10, 2016 Posts: 1299 Location: Cincinnati, Ohio
|
Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 5:17 am Post subject: Re: Rear bearing/oil seal issues |
|
|
I have the whole car jacked up, all four sides. would it help me to lower the other three wheels and have just this rear wheel elevated?
I have the drum torqued, and was ready to button it up till i saw that drip. Everything was torqued and closed, minus the lug nuts/wheel. _________________ 1963 Ragtop |
|
Back to top |
|
|
andk5591 Samba Member
Joined: August 29, 2005 Posts: 16754 Location: State College, PA
|
Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 5:33 am Post subject: Re: Rear bearing/oil seal issues |
|
|
What you are after is getting the wheel that you are working on as high as possible relative to the transaxle. This will allow the gear oil to drain back into the transaxle. Will take a little while for it to drain back. I jack it up, wait 1/2 hour and then start working on it.
You NEED to make sure that you have everything together in the proper sequence and your big O-ring goes OVER the bearing. Be careful you dont chew up the small O-ring slipping it over the axle splines. _________________ D-Dubya Manx clone - 63 Short pan,1914.
Rosie 65 bug - My mostly stock daily driver.
Woodie 69 VW woodie (Hot VWs 7/12).
"John's car" 64 VW woodie - The first ever
Maxine 61 Cal-look bug - Cindy's daily driver.
Max - 73 standard Beetle hearse project - For sale
66 bug project - Real patina & Suby conversion
There's more, but not keeping them... |
|
Back to top |
|
|
VOLKSWAGNUT Fastest VW Belt Changer
Joined: October 14, 2007 Posts: 11053 Location: Flippin' a Belt........ .... Off-n-On ... NC USA
|
Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 7:44 am Post subject: Re: Rear bearing/oil seal issues |
|
|
I've never drained an axle during seal service.. and rarely jack an axle level to prevent dribbling. Yet to have an issue.. but also stating its common practice... and not a bad idea..
Shoes are cheap.. but Vw owners are too..
If the shoes are not totally saturated.. dry them with brake cleaner and sand the braking surface. They can still be used.
I suspect an incorrect assembly.
I also note from the picture... early caps with later backing plates (note the drain weep hole).
Possible mix match of parts.. or improper assembly. ?
Is it a long axle long axle tube transaxle? (67 or 68 tubes and axles?)
Be careful, pay attention research.. some parts are not mixable.
VOLKSWAGNUT wrote: |
Get a GOOD service manual and it will show and tell it ALL..!!!
AND FYI... both spacers are installed wih thier radius side inward...
The inner spacer radius is to convert the axle radius to a flat bearing surface
The outer spacer radius captures the O ring..
VOLKSWAGNUT wrote: |
Pre and Post 64 rear axle seal assembly
The 64 and prior drum slinger is only a precaution if the seal leaks.. it can be left out if it cant be sourced or can be converted to shrouded cap later style.
|
|
_________________ aka Ken {o\!/o}
Its your vehicle- stop askin' for approval-do what YOU like for cryin' out loud
Better to roll em' how you want and wear em' out-than lettin' em' rot out
Its about the going not the showing
Rebuilt to drive not decorate
WANTED: Local Eatin' Joints, Triple D for TheSamba contributions here http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=570510
Search "VOLKSWAGNUT" on YouTube since you cant watch a "certain" BELT change video round here
Usually and often edited |
|
Back to top |
|
|
crankbait09 Samba Member
Joined: October 10, 2016 Posts: 1299 Location: Cincinnati, Ohio
|
Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 9:02 am Post subject: Re: Rear bearing/oil seal issues |
|
|
ok....Although I couldn't tell where the problem lied, I removed everything from #7 through #14 of the diagram above. the large o-ring was squished and looked to be old, but it wasn't torn at all. but I replaced everything. Got everything buttoned back up as well as the torquing of the castle nut. (The torque meister is un-frickin-believable. that was awesome)
anyways, All torqued but how do I know if the seal is still leaking without removing the drum and exposing everything? I assume it would be dripping out of the oil slinger like it was yesterday. But it leaked when I wasn't even having the wheels on the ground. Is the only way to check, to remove the drum again?
I saw no oil before closing it up, but i doubt it would have happened immediately. _________________ 1963 Ragtop |
|
Back to top |
|
|
bluebus86 Banned
Joined: September 02, 2010 Posts: 11075
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
crankbait09 Samba Member
Joined: October 10, 2016 Posts: 1299 Location: Cincinnati, Ohio
|
Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 9:44 am Post subject: Re: Rear bearing/oil seal issues |
|
|
since my last post about an hour ago, I decided to remove that drum. I have turned the wheel, let it set some more, turned some more and then removed that drum. Everything is still dry. bone dry. I'm looking for the slightest wet spot but see nothing. damn.
Hard to say what it was. Could have been the large o-ring but i never touched it. anyways we look good.
another subject learned and logged in the experience book
thanks for the help and input......now off to my other post about timing. _________________ 1963 Ragtop |
|
Back to top |
|
|
rcroane Samba Member
Joined: January 03, 2013 Posts: 1996 Location: Springfield, Virginia
|
Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 11:16 am Post subject: Re: Rear bearing/oil seal issues |
|
|
crankbait09 wrote: |
since my last post about an hour ago, I decided to remove that drum. I have turned the wheel, let it set some more, turned some more and then removed that drum. Everything is still dry. bone dry. I'm looking for the slightest wet spot but see nothing. damn.
Hard to say what it was. Could have been the large o-ring but i never touched it. anyways we look good.
another subject learned and logged in the experience book
thanks for the help and input......now off to my other post about timing. |
You must really like that torque meister. I know you were curious, but there was really no need to take the drum off again to look for leaks. Have confidence in your work. Move on to getting that timing fixed and get that car on the road! Check your wheel periodically for signs of leakage. My bet is you won't see any. _________________ '65 Sunroof Bug |
|
Back to top |
|
|
crankbait09 Samba Member
Joined: October 10, 2016 Posts: 1299 Location: Cincinnati, Ohio
|
Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 11:28 am Post subject: Re: Rear bearing/oil seal issues |
|
|
I lack confidence when doing anything I have never done before....... _________________ 1963 Ragtop |
|
Back to top |
|
|
|