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tlake Samba Member
Joined: March 25, 2018 Posts: 27 Location: WA
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Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 10:45 am Post subject: Re: Road & Track's Pinto Vs Super Beetle 1971 figures |
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For all the Beetle's failings by the early '70s, all magazines still said it was the best built, had the best materials, the fewest delivery defects and the best warranty and resale. So, you have to weigh that up against the advantages the other newer cars had.
Even by the early '70s the Japanese companies didn't have as wide a dealer network as VW.
When the new water cooled VWs came, they drove better, but weren't as reliable, or as well made as the old Bug. |
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vamram Samba Member
Joined: March 08, 2012 Posts: 7300 Location: NOVA
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Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 11:04 am Post subject: Re: Road & Track's Pinto Vs Super Beetle 1971 figures |
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I saw one of these at an autoshow in Rockville, MD last June. I swear, it made me want a Vega!!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_Cosworth_Vega _________________ Eventually, "we are what we pretend to be.’”
Give peace a chance - Stop Russian-Soviet Aggression!!
'74 Super 9/16 - present, in refurb process.
'73 Super - 6/18 - Present - Daily Driver!
'75 Super Le Grande...waiting it's turn in line behind '74.
Click to view image
Save the Supers!! |
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joey1320 Samba Member
Joined: September 12, 2006 Posts: 2325 Location: Cleveland, OH
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Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 11:55 am Post subject: Re: Road & Track's Pinto Vs Super Beetle 1971 figures |
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sb001 wrote: |
joey1320 wrote: |
Sorry but as a BMW shop foreman I can tell you the quality of these cars has gone to the shithole since 1999. Never would I own one (unless pre'99), even knowing how to fix them. |
Sister had a 2005 325i, gave her nothing but fits. Left her stranded at least twice due to dead battery, what's up with that ridiculous charging system in those things?? |
Too many computers doing too many things... That plus a "race to the lowest price" on parts suppliers and you get a modern BMW. _________________ **1971 Super Project
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...mp;start=0 |
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theKbStockpiler Samba Member
Joined: July 07, 2012 Posts: 2316 Location: Rust Belt
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Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 2:10 pm Post subject: Re: Road & Track's Pinto Vs Super Beetle 1971 figures |
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Quote: |
I saw one of these at an autoshow in Rockville, MD last June. I swear, it made me want a Vega!!
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I read where cosworth could only get 270hp out of the lower end configuration with the factory block and down stroking. Cosworth wanted a bigger bore not possible with the factory casting but GM would not alter the blocks so Cosworth pulled out of the deal, what ever that was. _________________ My beetle is not competing with your beetle. I have the yellow beetle in my town. There is a red one, a green one ......
Use all safety devices including a mask. |
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wcfvw69 Samba Purist
Joined: June 10, 2004 Posts: 13389 Location: Arizona
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Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 8:11 pm Post subject: Re: Road & Track's Pinto Vs Super Beetle 1971 figures |
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joey1320 wrote: |
sb001 wrote: |
joey1320 wrote: |
Sorry but as a BMW shop foreman I can tell you the quality of these cars has gone to the shithole since 1999. Never would I own one (unless pre'99), even knowing how to fix them. |
Sister had a 2005 325i, gave her nothing but fits. Left her stranded at least twice due to dead battery, what's up with that ridiculous charging system in those things?? |
Too many computers doing too many things... That plus a "race to the lowest price" on parts suppliers and you get a modern BMW. |
I keep reading these types of negative remarks about BMW, Audi, VW and Mercedes. A buddy had a $90k Audi A8. That Audi was a shop queen. He ditched it after 8 months. I've driven Ford F-150's and the newer explorers with zero issues for the last 15 years.
Many new American made cars are much more reliable than the higher priced European makes. _________________ Contact me at [email protected]
Follow me on instagram @sparxwerksllc
Decades of VW and VW parts restoration experience.
The Samba member since 2004.
**Now rebuilding throttle bodies for VW's and Porsche's**
**Restored German Bosch distributors for sale or I can restore yours**
**Restored German Pierburg fuel pumps for sale or I can restore yours**
**Restored Porsche fuel pumps or I can restore yours**
**Restored Porsche distributors or I can restore yours** |
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Xevin Samba Member
Joined: January 08, 2014 Posts: 7623
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Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 9:50 pm Post subject: Re: Road & Track's Pinto Vs Super Beetle 1971 figures |
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wcfvw69 wrote: |
I keep reading these types of negative remarks about BMW, Audi, VW and Mercedes. A buddy had a $90k Audi A8. That Audi was a shop queen |
I think you mean “Shop Whore”.
I know German cars need strict regular maintenance discipline. And Xatie’s stupid car has had all that. Part of the lease. Her car apparently had some fuel pump failure. She didn’t know the details. It’s probably a Bosch fuel pump it’s BMWs boat anchor to deal with in two years. Sorry for the sucker that buys this BMW certifiable piece of trash in 2 years. Incidentally my buddies wife’s leased Mercedes has been in the shop for shanangins. It’s only a year old. Great handling performance in the garage. _________________ Keep on Busin'
67rustavenger wrote: |
GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo! |
Clatter wrote: |
Damn that Xevin... |
skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
I respect Xevin and he's a turd |
SGKent wrote: |
My God! Xevin and I 100% agree |
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chicagovw Samba Member
Joined: January 06, 2007 Posts: 1419 Location: Chicago IL/CHandler AZ
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Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 7:36 am Post subject: Re: Road & Track's Pinto Vs Super Beetle 1971 figures |
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The VW was the best built of those cars by far, as Road and Track also seemed to agree. But it was a 1930s design and VW stubbornly refused to address many shortcomings. There was little rear seat legroom, but they continued to have relatively thick front seat seatbacks until 1977. Folks also complained about loading luggage into the back-yet they never offered even an opening rear window, let alone going to a Type 3 style engine layout which would have allowed a real hatchback design and much larger rear luggage area. Since that would have required a total redesign, why not a longer wheel base to further increase rear seat legroom? Why not also include a blower fan for the heat/defrost system as standard? Even Road and Track's very last road test of an original Beetle, in 1979 of the Convertible, they said that fundamentally the VW was still a very good car-but there were many things that were simply out of date, and that folks wanted, as Henry M Manney put it, "the new, New NEW". Which is true. I think if VW would have done a full and proper redesign of the Beetle, it would have stayed more competitive in areas beyond build quality, reliability, and fuel economy (it was at or very near the top even at the end of it's run in the USA). They did a half hearted effort with the Super Beetle, instead of a full on redesign which was needed in order to compete. Another problem was, as the 1970s went on, was price. The Beetle, which was around $1800 in 1971, was just a dollar under $3700-more than double- by 1977-imagine a base 2011 Jetta, which was $15,765 MSRP when new, becoming a car that had a base price of round $33,000 by 2017 (or a 2011 Jetta SEL which was $23,065, having a base price of over $50,000!)-so it is no wonder that sales were gone by then. |
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baldessariclan Samba Member
Joined: October 14, 2016 Posts: 1374 Location: Wichita, KS
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Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 7:47 am Post subject: Re: Road & Track's Pinto Vs Super Beetle 1971 figures |
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Yeah, I always thought the body styling on the Chevy Vegas wasn't all that bad looking, especially for a compact economy car.
Unfortunately, I think that they made the body panels directly out of compressed rust, or something like that... |
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DurocShark Samba Member
Joined: April 05, 2004 Posts: 6624 Location: Crappy town in a crappy state. But the beach is nearby, so I have that going for me.
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Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 7:54 am Post subject: Re: Road & Track's Pinto Vs Super Beetle 1971 figures |
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I've owned a Pinto, a Vega, and a Maverick. I loved the styling on all of them. The Vega wagon with its 4 speed was a blast to drive in the mountains until I hit a deer at 65mph. The Pinto was just a beater that lasted less than a year, and my mom wrecked the Maverick. 3 on the tree, yo!
Funny thing is I have no desire to own any of them ever again. However I keep getting VWs... _________________ No boom today. Boom tomorrow. There's always a boom tomorrow. |
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joemama Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2006 Posts: 1636 Location: La Crescenta, California
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Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 12:59 pm Post subject: Re: Road & Track's Pinto Vs Super Beetle 1971 figures |
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I remember that article. At the time I felt that if they had pushed something like the type 3 notchback, it would have competed well. The fastback could of been redesigned to be a cool hatchback. Ultimately, the air cooled motor would of been very difficult and expensive to keep meeting ever more stringent emission standards. The Datsun 510 in particular was a very cool little car, and could be made to handle and perform very well. |
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Volktales Samba Member
Joined: June 21, 2013 Posts: 545 Location: Nanaimo, B.C. CANADA
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Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 9:51 pm Post subject: Re: Road & Track's Pinto Vs Super Beetle 1971 figures |
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I also have the Road and Track reprint of that test and find it amusing. They soundly rated the Beetle last compared to the four other cars and summed it up as "Durable but Antique". With the benefit of hindsight, how are these cars now remembered?
The Toyota Corona is now a largely forgotten car, that faded from the US and Canadian markets in the early '80's. The much better known Corolla is in fact the car Road and Track should of compared to the Beetle, as it was the direct competitor at the time. The Corona was a significantly larger, more powerful, and expensive sedan then the others, but somehow R&T felt this was fair. When was the last time you ever saw one on the street???
The Datsun 510 was quite a decent car with a great engine and suspension. Although they liked to rust in the wet like most Japanese cars of that era, these models were well liked and respected. And are also one of the few "economy" cars of the era that were saved and can be spotted occasionally on the streets today.
The Vega was a popular car in the early '70's, but quickly gained a very bad reputation for both engine problems and rust. The alloy engines had severe oil consumption problems and they rotted out very fast. It seems all the ones I remember in the '70's were orange and lime green for some reason. Today you still might find one in a car show, but it will have a small block V8 under the hood and pro-street fatty tires in the back...
Pintos. "Barbeque for Four". A very poor design fault meant that the fuel tank would explode quite easily in a rear end collision. There is lots of information out there about this regarding Ford's creative way of dealing with it. They rusted fantastically too, but Ford still managed to sell piles of them. Again when was the last time you saw one on the street???
And our beloved VW rated in lowly last place??? It had the last laugh of course, as they are still out there, pretty much everywhere. At least people thought enough of their Beetles to put them away, to fix up someday in the future, rather then just scrap them when they fell out of daily use. Nobody who owned a Corona, Vega, or Pinto thought to do that, or likely cared. At least a few 510 enthusiasts did. I would still like one of those as well as a VW or two... _________________ 1974 "Restfalia" Camper 2000 cc EFI 2001-
1970 Beetle first car, rotten, yard art 1985-
1966 Sunroof Beetle, restored 1998-
1964 Ghia, ongoing project 2007-
1962 Beetle Beryl,original paint survivor 2012-
1970 Savannah Beige Beetle 2012-
1992 16v GTI, 100% stock 2006-
1991 "Terseo", wife's old daily 1995-
1969 Chevrolet CST/10 (family owned since new)
1965 Gold Corvair Monza 2021-
1966 and 1965 Monza 2022- |
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slalombuggy Samba Member
Joined: July 17, 2010 Posts: 9145 Location: Canada
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Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 10:24 pm Post subject: Re: Road & Track's Pinto Vs Super Beetle 1971 figures |
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sb001 wrote: |
joey1320 wrote: |
Sorry but as a BMW shop foreman I can tell you the quality of these cars has gone to the shithole since 1999. Never would I own one (unless pre'99), even knowing how to fix them. |
Sister had a 2005 325i, gave her nothing but fits. Left her stranded at least twice due to dead battery, what's up with that ridiculous charging system in those things?? |
I have friends that work at German dealerships. They make HUGE hours month after month doing warrantee work on POS vehicles. Before I got out of the industry I could plainly see that German engineering wasn't what it once was. BMWs were the worst, I fkn hated ever second I had to work on any one of those POS, followed closely by Audi/VW.
My favorite story about the current crop of BMWs is the charging systems that shut down at highway speeds to save fuel. The German engineers didn't count on the cars traveling at highways speed for 5 or 6 hours so the cars eventually just die out on the highway. Appearantly they were working on a software fix for the problem . I would take public transit before I drive a bmw.
IT's sad to think that out beloved little cars came in last to a crop of cars of which could be argued were the worst cars made by their respective marques. Except the 510, I would love a 2 door 2 litre car in my garage. Fearsome competitors when I first started autocrossing 25 years ago
brad |
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autocrat Samba Member
Joined: June 29, 2009 Posts: 114 Location: SoCal
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Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2018 8:51 pm Post subject: Re: Road & Track's Pinto Vs Super Beetle 1971 figures |
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The best of the lot was the Datsun 510, a cut rate BMW. Toyota was a blandmobile. The exploding Pinto is an overblown urban myth trumped up by Mother Jones magazine. Less than 20 people died in early Pinto (sedan only, not the wagons) fires, iirc, and '73 and newer had sturdy federal bumpers. With the 2.3 engine, they lasted and lasted long after Vega hit the scrap heap.
In '73 I bought a new Super Beetle because I thought it was the best value. I blasted it on the mountain roads of SoCal. Fun to drive when new....solid, dependable. |
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Mos6502 Samba Member
Joined: December 30, 2015 Posts: 725
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Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 1:55 am Post subject: Re: Road & Track's Pinto Vs Super Beetle 1971 figures |
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I have the May 1975 issue of Road & Track which has a comparison test between 9 imports. VW Rabbit came in first place. Beetle, last, by a big margin. 2nd place? Honda Civic. The Datsun 510 was dead by then, the B210 was the current model - and it was an absolute dog. Even the Fiat ranked higher in this comparison, and I'd have to agree, the 128 was a great little car, excepting its propensity to rust into many small pieces in a matter of months. Whereas the B210 was basically a washing machine on wheels.
The author laments the fact that VW was no longer offering the Super Beetle which would have done much better in the comparison (though technically true, it was still available dressed up as La Grande Bug in 1975). As it was the standard beetle was the slowest, noisiest, worst braked, most cramped, and roughest riding car in the lot. Time moved on. |
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Max Welton Samba Member
Joined: May 19, 2003 Posts: 10697 Location: Black Forest, CO
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Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 7:40 am Post subject: Re: Road & Track's Pinto Vs Super Beetle 1971 figures |
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We had a B210 wagon when our kids were little ... early 1980s. Don't recall what model year the car was.
Around town it was adequate as a transportation appliance but each time we drove from San Jose to Anaheim the starter would heat-soak and stop working. We went through several starters in that thing.
Max _________________ 1967 Type-3 Fastback
Under the Knife https://shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=151582
Home Stretch https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=767836 |
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sjbartnik Samba Member
Joined: September 01, 2011 Posts: 5994 Location: Brooklyn
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Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 8:56 am Post subject: Re: Road & Track's Pinto Vs Super Beetle 1971 figures |
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autocrat wrote: |
The exploding Pinto is an overblown urban myth trumped up by Mother Jones magazine. Less than 20 people died in early Pinto (sedan only, not the wagons) fires, iirc, and '73 and newer had sturdy federal bumpers. |
I saw it in a movie so it must be true!
Link
_________________ 1965 Volkswagen 1500 Variant S
2000 Kawasaki W650 |
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wcfvw69 Samba Purist
Joined: June 10, 2004 Posts: 13389 Location: Arizona
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Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 12:16 pm Post subject: Re: Road & Track's Pinto Vs Super Beetle 1971 figures |
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Someone mentioned the reality here earlier. You simply don't see Ford Pintos, Chevy Vegas or Monza's, 70's Honda's or Datsuns or any of those entry level cars of the day that competed with VW's bug.
I haven't seen one of those cars on the road in decades. Thankfully, most were crushed and recycled, which free'd the poor owners of the horror of ownership.
The only classic cars I see these days on the road are 60's/70's muscle cars, 60's/70's Ford Mustangs, VW bugs and buses. Occasionally I see a 56/57 Chevy out but it's rare. _________________ Contact me at [email protected]
Follow me on instagram @sparxwerksllc
Decades of VW and VW parts restoration experience.
The Samba member since 2004.
**Now rebuilding throttle bodies for VW's and Porsche's**
**Restored German Bosch distributors for sale or I can restore yours**
**Restored German Pierburg fuel pumps for sale or I can restore yours**
**Restored Porsche fuel pumps or I can restore yours**
**Restored Porsche distributors or I can restore yours** |
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DurocShark Samba Member
Joined: April 05, 2004 Posts: 6624 Location: Crappy town in a crappy state. But the beach is nearby, so I have that going for me.
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Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 12:20 pm Post subject: Re: Road & Track's Pinto Vs Super Beetle 1971 figures |
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There are a few vintage CVCC/Civic's and Accords around here as well. But still far more VWs than any of the other imports. _________________ No boom today. Boom tomorrow. There's always a boom tomorrow. |
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Mos6502 Samba Member
Joined: December 30, 2015 Posts: 725
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Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 11:57 pm Post subject: Re: Road & Track's Pinto Vs Super Beetle 1971 figures |
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I actually see a lot of old Hondas locally, including an N600. The rest? Datsun? Renault? Fiat? Nope, never. There are a few old Toyotas around too, but mostly the trucks and Land Cruisers.
There may be more volkswagens still on the road now than those other makes, but there's also more volkswagens in junk yards than those other makes as well. VW was the best selling import for over a decade. |
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Old n' slow Samba Member
Joined: October 29, 2012 Posts: 619 Location: Western Maryland
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Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 6:15 am Post subject: Re: Road & Track's Pinto Vs Super Beetle 1971 figures |
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That "alloy" engine in the Vega was a GM attempt at weight and cost saving.
They tried a new silicone impregnated aluminum alloy block without iron cylinders.
I remember it was a disaster. A couple of friends had them at the time, they called them three cylinder Vegas, because that's how many cylinders they ran on. It was popular at the time to have a machine shop install iron liners at rebuild time. _________________ Currently own : 1969 Beetle w/ 1600cc, Single Port, Solex 30 PICT 2, Dist. 113 905 205 T, stock exhaust.
All my daily drivers gone but not forgotten;
1964(sunroof)1967 & (2)1968 Beetles , 1968 Squareback , 1963 (23 window )Deluxe Sunroof Bus , 1969 Westphalia camper, 1974 Dasher , 1985 Vanagon , (2) 1981 Rabbit Diesels & a 1991 Jetta Diesel . |
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