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ForceBwU19
Samba Member
Joined: January 06, 2018
Posts: 2
Location: Saint Louis, MO
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 Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 7:08 pm Post subject: 79 Rabbit brake questions |
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New owner of a 79 diesel Rabbit here. Loving the thing so far, but I am less than overwhelmed by the brakes, I'm not positive any of them would lock up if I stood on the pedal in a panic stop, I definitely have an issue. I'm sure part of it has to do with the general condition of the pads, rotors, shoes and drums, these will be replaced soon as a good place to start. One thing is bothering me though. I can't quite tell what type of caliper I have. I understand there are 3 different types. Are they freely interchangeable if I replace both sides? If so, which are "the best" performers? Below is a pic of what is currently on my rabbit. Thanks for any help you all can provide!
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Butcher
Samba Member
Joined: December 05, 2015
Posts: 1285
Location: Right Here
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| Posted: Tue May 01, 2018 5:09 am Post subject: Re: 79 Rabbit brake questions |
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I believe those are ATE calipers which are hard to find and not worth looking for anyway.
Most people update the calipers for the Kelsey Haynes type calipers and also use the vented rotors. The calipers can be used for vented and non vented rotors, you just need to get the right pads.
Do not forget to get the brake carriers and hoses also if you choose to change them out |
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runamoc 
Samba Member
Joined: June 19, 2006
Posts: 5599
Location: 37.5N 77.1W
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| Posted: Fri May 04, 2018 7:09 am Post subject: Re: 79 Rabbit brake questions |
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| Quote: |
| Kelsey Haynes type calipers and also use the vented rotors. The calipers can be used for vented and non vented rotors, you just need to get the right pads |
'84 Scirocco stock front brakes are vented and the brake pads for it are just like unvented only 'thinner' brake pad material.
_________________
Daily driver: '69 Baja owned 44 yrs - Plan B: '81 Rabbit Diesel LS Deluxe - Plan C: '72 Ghia
Yard Art: 2 Sandrails
Outback: '69 Ghia - '68,'69,'70,'72 Beetle - '84 Scirocco, GTI - Pair of '02 Golfs-
VW Wiring = It's just wires |
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TDCTDI
Samba Advocatus Diaboli
Joined: August 31, 2013
Posts: 12846
Location: North Carolina
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| Posted: Fri May 04, 2018 7:44 am Post subject: Re: 79 Rabbit brake questions |
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The vented rotors cannot be used with those calipers, at least not without grinding the caliper hangers for clearance. To run the newer calipers may also require swapping the steering knuckles as the bolt spacing is different. This can also lead to having to change the axles or outer C.V. joints. (There is a clearance issue between late/early outer joints & hubs but I forget in which direction.)
_________________
Everybody born before 1975 has a story, good, bad, or indifferent, about a VW.
GOFUNDYOURSELF, quit asking everyone to do it for you!
An air cooled VW will make you a hoarder.
Do something, anything, to your project every day, and you will eventually complete it. |
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skills@eurocarsplus
Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007
Posts: 16849
Location: sticksville, ct.
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| Posted: Sat May 05, 2018 8:13 am Post subject: Re: 79 Rabbit brake questions |
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| TDCTDI wrote: |
| This can also lead to having to change the axles or outer C.V. joints. (There is a clearance issue between late/early outer joints & hubs but I forget in which direction.) |
a 90mm axle will fit into a 100mm hub, not the other way around. easy enough fix with a dremel. wheel hubs and bearings are all the same, just the knuckle casting is different in the bore on the 100mm.
I would be VERY surprised if you could even find pads/calipers for that. I would just get cabriolet knuckles, calipers and caliper brackets and swap it all out.
you MAY have the same caliper mounting on those knuckles....but it's been a looooong time and my memory is foggy on that.
get the vented rotors. nice cheap upgrade. calipers are the same between solid/vented but the pads are thinner on the vented rotors
_________________
| gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
| Jake Raby wrote: |
| Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
| Brian wrote: |
| Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
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volksworld
Samba Member
Joined: November 26, 2011
Posts: 2529
Location: formerly NY currently NC
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| Posted: Sat May 05, 2018 10:55 am Post subject: Re: 79 Rabbit brake questions |
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| 16 valve scirocco calipers and brackets also bolt onto the later spindles which also give you a larger diameter rotor but i believe you have to upgrade to 14 inch rims to clear them....you can bolt on late stubaxles to your rear beam that have the caliper mount ears molded into them and put discs in the rear also |
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TDCTDI
Samba Advocatus Diaboli
Joined: August 31, 2013
Posts: 12846
Location: North Carolina
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| Posted: Sat May 05, 2018 11:11 am Post subject: Re: 79 Rabbit brake questions |
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I found that the larger mk3 rear drums were far more effective than the rear discs.
_________________
Everybody born before 1975 has a story, good, bad, or indifferent, about a VW.
GOFUNDYOURSELF, quit asking everyone to do it for you!
An air cooled VW will make you a hoarder.
Do something, anything, to your project every day, and you will eventually complete it. |
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volksworld
Samba Member
Joined: November 26, 2011
Posts: 2529
Location: formerly NY currently NC
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| Posted: Sat May 05, 2018 11:21 am Post subject: Re: 79 Rabbit brake questions |
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| just remembered...the later spindles also use a larger diameter ball joint...the originals are riveted in and are a pia to install but i would hope after 39 years they've been changed... |
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skills@eurocarsplus
Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007
Posts: 16849
Location: sticksville, ct.
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| Posted: Sat May 05, 2018 12:48 pm Post subject: Re: 79 Rabbit brake questions |
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| volksworld wrote: |
| 16 valve scirocco calipers and brackets also bolt onto the later spindles which also give you a larger diameter rotor but i believe you have to upgrade to 14 inch rims to clear them....you can bolt on late stubaxles to your rear beam that have the caliper mount ears molded into them and put discs in the rear also |
true, but you need the scirocco booster, master and prop valves to make it all work. 10:1's are ok I guess, but not worth the effort. btdt....quality pads stop my 1.8t rabbit just fine with the stock (but upgraded vented rotor) set up.
and I agree with TDI....drums seem way better than the vw disk set up
_________________
| gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
| Jake Raby wrote: |
| Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
| Brian wrote: |
| Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
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volksworld
Samba Member
Joined: November 26, 2011
Posts: 2529
Location: formerly NY currently NC
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| Posted: Sat May 05, 2018 5:58 pm Post subject: Re: 79 Rabbit brake questions |
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| when i put the 16 v setup on mine the master,booster and prop valve remained the same and worked fine....but this hadda be 20 yrs ago so i cant swear what year masters were the same....but now that you mention booster...if this thing does have power brakes, the diesel uses a vacuum pump (bolts in the spot where the distributor would be in a gas car)...if the diaphram or valves in that go bad theres no power assist and the car will be very hard to stop |
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oprn
Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016
Posts: 12683
Location: Western Canada
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| Posted: Sat May 05, 2018 9:08 pm Post subject: Re: 79 Rabbit brake questions |
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| volksworld wrote: |
| when i put the 16 v setup on mine the master,booster and prop valve remained the same and worked fine....but this hadda be 20 yrs ago so i cant swear what year masters were the same....but now that you mention booster...if this thing does have power brakes, the diesel uses a vacuum pump (bolts in the spot where the distributor would be in a gas car)...if the diaphram or valves in that go bad theres no power assist and the car will be very hard to stop |
That was exactly what I was thinking. I had an '82 Rabbit turbo Diesel and do not recall there being any issue with the brakes! |
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skills@eurocarsplus
Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007
Posts: 16849
Location: sticksville, ct.
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| Posted: Sun May 06, 2018 4:29 pm Post subject: Re: 79 Rabbit brake questions |
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| volksworld wrote: |
| when i put the 16 v setup on mine the master,booster and prop valve remained the same and worked fine....but this hadda be 20 yrs ago so i cant swear what year masters were the same....but now that you mention booster...if this thing does have power brakes, the diesel uses a vacuum pump (bolts in the spot where the distributor would be in a gas car)...if the diaphram or valves in that go bad theres no power assist and the car will be very hard to stop |
usa spec cars used a bendix booster. different master cylinder bolt pattern than the german cars that used a fag or ate booster.
look at a usa rabbit booster....the master has really goofy ears compared to fag or ate.
_________________
| gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
| Jake Raby wrote: |
| Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
| Brian wrote: |
| Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
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ForceBwU19
Samba Member
Joined: January 06, 2018
Posts: 2
Location: Saint Louis, MO
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| Posted: Tue May 08, 2018 9:04 pm Post subject: Re: 79 Rabbit brake questions |
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Thanks for all the input! This 1.5 has a manual Master Cyl (no booster at all).
So it sounds like I may need new(er) knuckles? I think my ball joints are riveted in for what its worth. Anyone have some decent pics of the Kelsey Haynes calipers mounted on a car? Inner and outer sides? |
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sgnimj96
Samba Member
Joined: May 14, 2015
Posts: 48
Location: Melbourne, FL
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| Posted: Mon May 14, 2018 7:21 pm Post subject: Re: 79 Rabbit brake questions |
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no booster? must be a good MC they used
maybe just get new rotors and pads and do a proper bed-in so they work as good as possible
Make sure the rear shoes good and are adjusted properly. Drum brakes are actually have a lot of stopping power, that's why they use them on big rigs. New drums are cheap, too.
rockauto has mk1 brake stuff on closeout a lot |
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Butcher
Samba Member
Joined: December 05, 2015
Posts: 1285
Location: Right Here
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| Posted: Tue May 15, 2018 7:27 am Post subject: Re: 79 Rabbit brake questions |
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Drum brakes are a terrible design but were used because they were cheap, not because they are better.
Why do you think they have pull outs on long grades for semi's without brakes? |
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TDCTDI
Samba Advocatus Diaboli
Joined: August 31, 2013
Posts: 12846
Location: North Carolina
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| Posted: Tue May 15, 2018 8:41 am Post subject: Re: 79 Rabbit brake questions |
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| Butcher wrote: |
Drum brakes are a terrible design but were used because they were cheap, not because they are better.
Why do you think they have pull outs on long grades for semi's without brakes? |
The larger rear drum brakes on the rear of a Rabbit will NEVER see brake fade unless you're driving with the parking brake on. 
No matter what brake design is employed, trying to keep that much weight from running away down a steep slope is going to build up too much heat & cause brake fade. FWIW, most large trucks are still using drum brakes on all axles except the fronts.
_________________
Everybody born before 1975 has a story, good, bad, or indifferent, about a VW.
GOFUNDYOURSELF, quit asking everyone to do it for you!
An air cooled VW will make you a hoarder.
Do something, anything, to your project every day, and you will eventually complete it. |
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| Back to top |
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Butcher
Samba Member
Joined: December 05, 2015
Posts: 1285
Location: Right Here
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| Posted: Wed May 16, 2018 7:44 am Post subject: Re: 79 Rabbit brake questions |
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Yes, I agree. Yes, I understand many semi's are still with drum brakes [disc up front].
I'm just saying, disc brakes are a better braking system compared to a drum brake system and drums are manly used because they are cheaper to manufacture, not better.
I do not know any company that makes a drum brake conversion.
I'm certain we both agree a poorly designed brake system is not good if it's drum or disc. |
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