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ELFRIED Samba Member
Joined: August 09, 2017 Posts: 410 Location: belgium
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Posted: Tue May 15, 2018 7:13 am Post subject: Matching Numbers ? |
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My ghia 1963 has VIN 4956472 which should be correct for that year.
As I look in the technical pages the motor number should start with a 3 and then 6 digits.
My motor number is 6154197 which should be for a bug from 1961.
So, no matching numbers then? Or are there other possibilities? |
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KGCoupe Samba Member
Joined: July 01, 2005 Posts: 3580 Location: Putting the "ill" and "annoy" in Illinois
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Posted: Tue May 15, 2018 9:41 am Post subject: Re: matching? |
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The only way to know for certain if your Karmann Ghia still has the engine it originally left the factory with is to order the "Birth Certificate" from the Stiftung Automuseum and be sure to include the number of the engine currently in the car with your request.
They can then verify whether or not the engine you have is the original engine, but they will not come out and directly tell you the actual number of the original engine.
Due to the lower cost and ease of swapping, Volkswagens often had their original engine swapped out for a rebuilt / different engine over the years.
This was true much more so than with your average American car.
Therefore, a "numbers-matching" Karmann Ghia is generally speaking not worth significantly more than one that does not have the original engine. |
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djkeev Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007 Posts: 32432 Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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GHIA Samba Member
Joined: August 27, 2005 Posts: 345 Location: FRANCE
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Posted: Tue May 15, 2018 12:09 pm Post subject: Re: matching? |
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ELFRIED wrote: |
my ghia 63 has vin 4956472 which should be correct for that year only as i look in the tecnical pages the motornumber should start with a 3 and then 6 digids.
My motornumber is 6154197 which should be for a bug from 61.
So, no matching numbers then? or ae there other possibilities? |
For the VIN 4 956 472 the engine number should be between 6 916 000 and 7 196 000
What is your body number stamped below the manufacturer's plate in the trunk ? |
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Era Vulgaris Samba Member
Joined: August 22, 2012 Posts: 1662 Location: Raleigh, NC
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Posted: Wed May 16, 2018 6:45 am Post subject: Re: Matching Numbers ? |
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As KGCoupe mentioned, ACVW's are very prone to having their engine swapped. Matching numbers is a rarity, and I agree with djkeev that it does add some value.
Until you order the birth certificate though, there's no way to know for sure. So when buying a car I usually just look for year-correct numbers. I think after a verified numbers match, a year-correct match is the "good enough" match for most folks whose car isn't a high end show car, but who still want a "correct" factory stock car. _________________ Currently own:
66 Karmann Ghia, L390 Gulf Blue, under construction, here: www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=760505&highlight=
99 Mazda MX-5 10AE, Sapphire Blue Mica, 6 speed, LSD
Previously owned:
98 Porsche Boxster, silver, 2.5L -- 67 Karmann Ghia, Black, 1500sp -- 98 BMW Z3, Atlanta Blue Metallic, 2.8L I6 -- 75 Porsche 914, Laguna Blue, 2270cc -- 72 Porsche 914, Signal Orange, 1.7 FI -- 74 Karmann Ghia, Black, 1600dp -- 74 Triumph TR6 with O.D., sapphire blue |
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ELFRIED Samba Member
Joined: August 09, 2017 Posts: 410 Location: belgium
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Posted: Wed May 16, 2018 8:45 am Post subject: Re: Matching Numbers ? |
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Ok,
well the number I found underneath the plate is 16776
don t know what this number is or what it is for? |
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djkeev Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007 Posts: 32432 Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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GHIA Samba Member
Joined: August 27, 2005 Posts: 345 Location: FRANCE
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Posted: Wed May 16, 2018 12:21 pm Post subject: Re: Matching Numbers ? |
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ELFRIED wrote: |
Ok,
well the number I found underneath the plate is 16776
don t know what this number is or what it is for? |
Your body number (16776) is matching with your VIN according to my database, and it corresponds to a coupe |
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Mellow Yellow 74 Samba Member
Joined: October 14, 2014 Posts: 1615 Location: Sydney, Australia
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Posted: Wed May 16, 2018 3:36 pm Post subject: Re: Matching Numbers ? |
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djkeev wrote: |
Mine is matching numbers. |
Weren’t you planning cutting two cars in half and joining the good halves together? _________________ 1962 Karmann Ghia
1974 Deluxe Microbus
1985 Caravelle (Vanagon) |
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djkeev Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007 Posts: 32432 Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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Glenn Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001 Posts: 76761 Location: Sneaking up behind you
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Posted: Wed May 16, 2018 4:06 pm Post subject: Re: Matching Numbers ? |
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I'm the original owner of my 74. It currently has a 2180cc engine with a Berg 5 speed. The body has 472,000 miles.
The original engine case cracked behind #3 at 180,000 miles. The original SSC tranny failed around 220,000 miles. I have the original case sitting in a box and the original tranny in the back of the garage. When i sell the car the new owner can have them if they like.
It also have real Porsche/Pedrini alloys and the 4 original date coded wheels are in the garage with 30 year old Michelin XZX on the front and X snow tires on the rear.
Personally, if i didn't have a attic in the garage, the case would be in the landfill and tranny sold as a core.
Matching number are good if you have a Hemi 'Cuda, but for a run of hte mill VW... it's a novelty. _________________ Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
Member #1009
#BlueSquare |
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djkeev Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007 Posts: 32432 Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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Glenn Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001 Posts: 76761 Location: Sneaking up behind you
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Posted: Wed May 16, 2018 5:01 pm Post subject: Re: Matching Numbers ? |
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Dave,
Actually the body, paint, bumpers, headliner, dash and door panels are correct. Replace the engine, transaxle, beam and seats and it's back to stock.
And fat chicks are desirable. They certainly ride better. _________________ Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
Member #1009
#BlueSquare |
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djkeev Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007 Posts: 32432 Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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c21darrel Samba Member
Joined: January 22, 2009 Posts: 8206 Location: San Dimas
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KGCoupe Samba Member
Joined: July 01, 2005 Posts: 3580 Location: Putting the "ill" and "annoy" in Illinois
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Posted: Thu May 17, 2018 8:21 am Post subject: Re: Matching Numbers ? |
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Glenn wrote: |
...
Matching number are good if you have a Hemi 'Cuda, but for a run of hte mill VW... it's a novelty. |
That's all I really meant by my initial comment.
Yes, I know that "matching numbers" vintage volkswagens of all types can still be found out there.
I also agree that Yes, as a verified and documented "matching numbers" car it would have some additional value.
Just how much additional value is IMO largely determined by what that's worth to the buyer, though, and what their plans are for the car.
Obviously someone looking for a bone-stock factory correct car would value "matching numbers" much more so than someone looking to create a resto-mod or custom car.
Far be it for me to stereotype or pigeonhole all vintage volkswagen owners, but, ... some of them have been known to be somewhat shall we say "frugal" and unwilling to pay the prices or premiums often more closely associated with other collectible automobiles such as vintage American Muscle Cars.
That makes sense, I guess, seeing as Volkswagens (particularly in America) were originally seen as a lower priced alternative (both in initial cost and operational costs) when compared to "full size" automobiles of the time.
Of course, in the past several years wealthy former hippies and Barret Jackson have been changing much of what we knew or even thought possible about vintage VW values in general.
In short, "matching numbers" would be a nice little bragging point if you've got it, and some potential buyers may be willing to pay some higher price because of it.
You may be lucky enough to get accompanying documentation (original sales receipt or Owner's Manual records) that can verify whether or not your vintage VW has its original engine.
If not, you can always try and see of the Stiftung Automuseum still has the appropriate records available for purchase.
However if it turns out you don't have "matching numbers", don't sweat it - it's not uncommon nor even that big of a deal unless you were planning a concours restoration.
c21darrel wrote: |
Glenn, your 2180 and 5 speed tranny are worth way more than original #'s matching. I drove a super for 6 months or so and agree, it had a better ride, easier to drive than many other VW's ive had. Part of that, i believe was the stock pressure plate. |
Just imagine how much more they would be worth if he would ever ditch that crappy 009 with the cheap plastic fuel filter mounted above it. |
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ELFRIED Samba Member
Joined: August 09, 2017 Posts: 410 Location: belgium
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Posted: Thu May 17, 2018 8:54 am Post subject: Re: Matching Numbers ? |
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ok ok ok just wondering
but are the fiches in the technical wright?
still don t know exactly about my motor ,if he s original or not.
the engine number starts with a 6 but should start with a 3 or not???? |
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Glenn Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001 Posts: 76761 Location: Sneaking up behind you
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Posted: Thu May 17, 2018 9:00 am Post subject: Re: Matching Numbers ? |
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KGCoupe wrote: |
Just imagine how much more they would be worth if he would ever ditch that crappy 009 |
That's why they call me Mr. 009 _________________ Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
Member #1009
#BlueSquare |
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c21darrel Samba Member
Joined: January 22, 2009 Posts: 8206 Location: San Dimas
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djkeev Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007 Posts: 32432 Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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