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ELFRIED
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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 7:13 am    Post subject: Matching Numbers ? Reply with quote

My ghia 1963 has VIN 4956472 which should be correct for that year.
As I look in the technical pages the motor number should start with a 3 and then 6 digits.
My motor number is 6154197 which should be for a bug from 1961.
So, no matching numbers then? Or are there other possibilities?
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KGCoupe
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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 9:41 am    Post subject: Re: matching? Reply with quote

The only way to know for certain if your Karmann Ghia still has the engine it originally left the factory with is to order the "Birth Certificate" from the Stiftung Automuseum and be sure to include the number of the engine currently in the car with your request.
They can then verify whether or not the engine you have is the original engine, but they will not come out and directly tell you the actual number of the original engine.

Due to the lower cost and ease of swapping, Volkswagens often had their original engine swapped out for a rebuilt / different engine over the years.
This was true much more so than with your average American car.
Therefore, a "numbers-matching" Karmann Ghia is generally speaking not worth significantly more than one that does not have the original engine.
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djkeev
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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 10:13 am    Post subject: Re: matching? Reply with quote

I disagree. ^^^^

A numbers matching unit is more desireable and worth more to the knowing buyer.

Body, chassis, transaxle, engine should all be as they left the factory.

I dislike units which are susposed to have a 1200 engine but have a 1600 engine or similar.

I will buy the original matching unit and yes, I would pay more for it.
Original has very real value.

Dave
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GHIA
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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 12:09 pm    Post subject: Re: matching? Reply with quote

ELFRIED wrote:
my ghia 63 has vin 4956472 which should be correct for that year only as i look in the tecnical pages the motornumber should start with a 3 and then 6 digids.
My motornumber is 6154197 which should be for a bug from 61.
So, no matching numbers then? or ae there other possibilities?


For the VIN 4 956 472 the engine number should be between 6 916 000 and 7 196 000

What is your body number stamped below the manufacturer's plate in the trunk ?
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Era Vulgaris
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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 6:45 am    Post subject: Re: Matching Numbers ? Reply with quote

As KGCoupe mentioned, ACVW's are very prone to having their engine swapped. Matching numbers is a rarity, and I agree with djkeev that it does add some value.
Until you order the birth certificate though, there's no way to know for sure. So when buying a car I usually just look for year-correct numbers. I think after a verified numbers match, a year-correct match is the "good enough" match for most folks whose car isn't a high end show car, but who still want a "correct" factory stock car.
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ELFRIED
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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 8:45 am    Post subject: Re: Matching Numbers ? Reply with quote

Ok,

well the number I found underneath the plate is 16776

don t know what this number is or what it is for?
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djkeev
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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 9:02 am    Post subject: Re: Matching Numbers ? Reply with quote

Mine is matching numbers.

The dealer filled in the spaces in the owners manual and the owners manual survived.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Dave
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http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6315537#6315537

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GHIA
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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 12:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Matching Numbers ? Reply with quote

ELFRIED wrote:
Ok,

well the number I found underneath the plate is 16776

don t know what this number is or what it is for?


Your body number (16776) is matching with your VIN according to my database, and it corresponds to a coupe
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Mellow Yellow 74
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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 3:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Matching Numbers ? Reply with quote

djkeev wrote:
Mine is matching numbers.


Weren’t you planning cutting two cars in half and joining the good halves together?
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djkeev
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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 3:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Matching Numbers ? Reply with quote

Mellow Yellow 74 wrote:
djkeev wrote:
Mine is matching numbers.


Weren’t you planning cutting two cars in half and joining the good halves together?


A slight exaggeration but the proper concept none-the-less.
A convertible donor and a Coupe joining to become an early "69 1/2 convertible".
I was only making a point that matching numbers cars DO exist and I have one.

If you read my posts you'll also see that I haven't any misconceptions about the value of my bastard Ghia when the dust settles.
Nor will I ever try to pass it off as the real deal should I sell it.

I am building it for us to enjoy during our "golden years" until my Daughters come to me and say ...........

"Dad, give me your keys." Crying or Very sad

Dave
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Karmann Ghia
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=392473

86 Vanagon Westy "Weekender" 2.1 Auto
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6315537#6315537

Beetle
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=482968&highlight=74+super+vert
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Glenn Premium Member
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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 4:06 pm    Post subject: Re: Matching Numbers ? Reply with quote

I'm the original owner of my 74. It currently has a 2180cc engine with a Berg 5 speed. The body has 472,000 miles.

The original engine case cracked behind #3 at 180,000 miles. The original SSC tranny failed around 220,000 miles. I have the original case sitting in a box and the original tranny in the back of the garage. When i sell the car the new owner can have them if they like.

It also have real Porsche/Pedrini alloys and the 4 original date coded wheels are in the garage with 30 year old Michelin XZX on the front and X snow tires on the rear.

Personally, if i didn't have a attic in the garage, the case would be in the landfill and tranny sold as a core.

Matching number are good if you have a Hemi 'Cuda, but for a run of hte mill VW... it's a novelty.
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djkeev
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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 4:50 pm    Post subject: Re: Matching Numbers ? Reply with quote

Glenn...... I've seen your ride, Your Beetle is so highly modified, no one woud expect matching numbers.
Plus it's a 74 fat chick........

Matching numbers is a non issue in your case.

Dave
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Karmann Ghia
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=392473

86 Vanagon Westy "Weekender" 2.1 Auto
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6315537#6315537

Beetle
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=482968&highlight=74+super+vert
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Glenn Premium Member
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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 5:01 pm    Post subject: Re: Matching Numbers ? Reply with quote

Dave,

Actually the body, paint, bumpers, headliner, dash and door panels are correct. Replace the engine, transaxle, beam and seats and it's back to stock.

And fat chicks are desirable. They certainly ride better.
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djkeev
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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 5:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Matching Numbers ? Reply with quote

Glenn, not knocking your Bug, it is an exceptiobal ride and well done.
Many prefer the struts and new designs.

However,
I didn't like mine at all.
We tolerated each other for a few years but there wasn't any love and I sold it.

I didn't like them new on the showroom floor, I still don't like them 40+ years later.

67 and earlier for Beetles, 70 and earlier for Ghias........ and 70 is stretching it with those big tail lights.



Dave
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I HATE PHOTOBUCKET!!!!!!

Karmann Ghia
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=392473

86 Vanagon Westy "Weekender" 2.1 Auto
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6315537#6315537

Beetle
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=482968&highlight=74+super+vert


Last edited by djkeev on Thu May 17, 2018 2:34 am; edited 1 time in total
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c21darrel Premium Member
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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 5:23 pm    Post subject: Re: Matching Numbers ? Reply with quote

Glenn, your 2180 and 5 speed tranny are worth way more than original #'s matching. I drove a super for 6 months or so and agree, it had a better ride, easier to drive than many other VW's ive had. Part of that, i believe was the stock pressure plate.
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KGCoupe
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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 8:21 am    Post subject: Re: Matching Numbers ? Reply with quote

Glenn wrote:
...

Matching number are good if you have a Hemi 'Cuda, but for a run of hte mill VW... it's a novelty.

That's all I really meant by my initial comment.

Yes, I know that "matching numbers" vintage volkswagens of all types can still be found out there.

I also agree that Yes, as a verified and documented "matching numbers" car it would have some additional value.
Just how much additional value is IMO largely determined by what that's worth to the buyer, though, and what their plans are for the car.
Obviously someone looking for a bone-stock factory correct car would value "matching numbers" much more so than someone looking to create a resto-mod or custom car.

Far be it for me to stereotype or pigeonhole all vintage volkswagen owners, but, ... some of them have been known to be somewhat shall we say "frugal" and unwilling to pay the prices or premiums often more closely associated with other collectible automobiles such as vintage American Muscle Cars.
That makes sense, I guess, seeing as Volkswagens (particularly in America) were originally seen as a lower priced alternative (both in initial cost and operational costs) when compared to "full size" automobiles of the time.

Of course, in the past several years wealthy former hippies and Barret Jackson have been changing much of what we knew or even thought possible about vintage VW values in general.


In short, "matching numbers" would be a nice little bragging point if you've got it, and some potential buyers may be willing to pay some higher price because of it.
You may be lucky enough to get accompanying documentation (original sales receipt or Owner's Manual records) that can verify whether or not your vintage VW has its original engine.
If not, you can always try and see of the Stiftung Automuseum still has the appropriate records available for purchase.
However if it turns out you don't have "matching numbers", don't sweat it - it's not uncommon nor even that big of a deal unless you were planning a concours restoration.



c21darrel wrote:
Glenn, your 2180 and 5 speed tranny are worth way more than original #'s matching. I drove a super for 6 months or so and agree, it had a better ride, easier to drive than many other VW's ive had. Part of that, i believe was the stock pressure plate.

Just imagine how much more they would be worth if he would ever ditch that crappy 009 with the cheap plastic fuel filter mounted above it.
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ELFRIED
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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 8:54 am    Post subject: Re: Matching Numbers ? Reply with quote

ok ok ok just wondering

but are the fiches in the technical wright?

still don t know exactly about my motor ,if he s original or not.

the engine number starts with a 6 but should start with a 3 or not????
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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 9:00 am    Post subject: Re: Matching Numbers ? Reply with quote

KGCoupe wrote:
Just imagine how much more they would be worth if he would ever ditch that crappy 009

That's why they call me Mr. 009 Wink
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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 11:23 am    Post subject: Re: Matching Numbers ? Reply with quote

Elfried, the only way to know for sure is to order a birth cert.
You can post your complete numbers and see if they are at least in the ballpark to help decide if you want to spend the $$ to confirm. IE, if you have a late dual relief case in a 65...you know its not original.
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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 11:46 am    Post subject: Re: Matching Numbers ? Reply with quote

I seriously question the accuracy of the engine numbers on this Ghia Chart.

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/info/chassisdatingkg.php

Engine numbers should closely follow the Beetle production run.

To my knowledge Karmann wasn't stamping their own numbers into engines.

These were built upon current Year Beetle Chassis and running gear.

Dave
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Karmann Ghia
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=392473

86 Vanagon Westy "Weekender" 2.1 Auto
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6315537#6315537

Beetle
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=482968&highlight=74+super+vert
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