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kiwighia68
Samba Member
Joined: October 20, 2013
Posts: 2874
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
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 Posted: Thu May 17, 2018 1:00 pm Post subject: Re: Matching Numbers ? |
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I've been reading this debate with some personal interest. I have a dual relief late case 1641 on my '68 with twin small Webers and the original gearbox. It runs ever so sweetly and has sufficient power for all traffic conditions out here down under Down Under.
But, I have a year appropriate case (H- series, yes I know, not dual relief) sitting in my garage waiting for a complete rebuild. I have twin Kadrons also waiting, and if I were to proceed with this project, I intend to do an alternator conversion and install balanced crank, cam and conrods, as well as a lightened flywheel and quiet exhaust - all designed to make my Ghia quieter.
In all of this, having an engine that is year-appropriate is not going to contribute anything other than the "feel-good" factor, I think. I'm still wondering whether I should bother. Maybe just the quiet exhaust ($700 or so). and forget about the rest.
Advice/comments?
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Festina lente - hasten slowly
1968 Ghia named Emiko
Resto completed Dec 2015
Last edited by kiwighia68 on Thu May 17, 2018 3:19 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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djkeev
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Joined: September 30, 2007
Posts: 32598
Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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c21darrel
Samba Member
Joined: January 22, 2009
Posts: 8211
Location: San Dimas
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| Posted: Thu May 17, 2018 2:54 pm Post subject: Re: Matching Numbers ? |
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| kiwighia68 wrote: |
I've been reading this debate with some personal interest. I have a dual relief late case 1641 on my '68 with twin small Webers and the original gearbox. It runs ever so sweetly and has sufficient power for all traffic conditions out here down under Down Under.
But, I have a year appropriate case (H- series, yes I know, not dual relief) sitting in my garage waiting for a complete rebuild. I have twin Kadrons all waiting, and if I were to proceed with this project, I intend to do an alternator conversion and install balanced crank, cam and concord, as well as a lightened flywheel and quiet exhaust - all designed to make my Ghia quieter.
In all of this, having an engine that is year-appropriate is not going to contribute anything other than the "feel-good" factor, I think. I'm still wondering whether I should bother. Maybe just the quiet exhaust ($700 or so). and forget about the rest.
Advice/comments? |
| Quote: |
| In all of this, having an engine that is year-appropriate is not going to contribute anything other than the "feel-good" factor, I think |
100%. it would be like going backward. You have a better case now. If you want a project...either a one day job, a weekend, a winter....
Split and Balance your current motor, do the ALt conversion, put the Kads on, put the quiet exhaust on....one all or none, your the king. 
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GhiaBuild
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=481184
1967 DC build
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=693583&highlight=67+dc
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blue72beetle
Samba Member
Joined: April 23, 2008
Posts: 846
Location: Fort Wayne, IN
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| Posted: Thu May 17, 2018 3:07 pm Post subject: Re: Matching Numbers ? |
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| djkeev wrote: |
I seriously question the accuracy of the engine numbers on this Ghia Chart.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/info/chassisdatingkg.php
Engine numbers should closely follow the Beetle production run.
To my knowledge Karmann wasn't stamping their own numbers into engines.
These were built upon current Year Beetle Chassis and running gear.
Dave |
The VIN #s on that chart are wrong. At least for July 1970. I'm guessing the VIN listed is the start of that month? Mine was built July '70 and has a number earlier than 140 3100 000, but not by much.
EDIT: Beetle chart says it's the last VIN of the month. Probably the same for the Ghia chart, makes sense now.
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-1970 Ghia-
-1971 Bus 1776 Microsquirt EFI- |
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Onceler
Samba Member
Joined: May 28, 2010
Posts: 1647
Location: Indiana
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| Posted: Thu May 17, 2018 4:15 pm Post subject: Re: Matching Numbers ? |
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| c21darrel wrote: |
| kiwighia68 wrote: |
I've been reading this debate with some personal interest. I have a dual relief late case 1641 on my '68 with twin small Webers and the original gearbox. It runs ever so sweetly and has sufficient power for all traffic conditions out here down under Down Under.
But, I have a year appropriate case (H- series, yes I know, not dual relief) sitting in my garage waiting for a complete rebuild. I have twin Kadrons all waiting, and if I were to proceed with this project, I intend to do an alternator conversion and install balanced crank, cam and concord, as well as a lightened flywheel and quiet exhaust - all designed to make my Ghia quieter.
In all of this, having an engine that is year-appropriate is not going to contribute anything other than the "feel-good" factor, I think. I'm still wondering whether I should bother. Maybe just the quiet exhaust ($700 or so). and forget about the rest.
Advice/comments? |
| Quote: |
| In all of this, having an engine that is year-appropriate is not going to contribute anything other than the "feel-good" factor, I think |
100%. it would be like going backward. You have a better case now. If you want a project...either a one day job, a weekend, a winter....
Split and Balance your current motor, do the ALt conversion, put the Kads on, put the quiet exhaust on....one all or none, your the king. |
Those H cases pull head studs too, even in stock form, I'd definitely install case savers
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1972 Karmann Ghia |
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djkeev
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Joined: September 30, 2007
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Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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kiwighia68
Samba Member
Joined: October 20, 2013
Posts: 2874
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
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| Posted: Thu May 17, 2018 4:47 pm Post subject: Re: Matching Numbers ? |
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| Onceler wrote: |
| ... Those H cases pull head studs too, even in stock form, I'd definitely install case savers |
Yep, I already have them in. I have enough parts to build a second engine. The temptation is great.
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Festina lente - hasten slowly
1968 Ghia named Emiko
Resto completed Dec 2015 |
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djkeev
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Joined: September 30, 2007
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Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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Evil_Fiz
Samba Member
Joined: May 06, 2011
Posts: 1047
Location: Jacksonville, FL
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| Posted: Thu May 17, 2018 5:04 pm Post subject: Re: Matching Numbers ? |
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OK, I'll be the one to "put the d**k on the snowman."
If matching numbers is not the big deal it is with GM and Mopar cars, and the prevailing wind blows towards ACVWs immunity to non-matching numbers devaluation, then why the big stink when someone does a Subaru engine swap to make the car more derivable and reliable. Many enjoy Daily Driving their ACVWs but could do without the oil leaks, frequent maintenance, and high cost of a performance engine built with less than stellar parts. If the conversion is done tastefully and with respect for the vehicle it should not be seen as the blasphemous violation that many play it out to be.
We see T4 conversions regularly applauded and viewed as an improvement over the T1 platform. So other than the cooling medium, what is so different about a Subaru conversion with minimal cutting and no discernible exterior evidence? I am nor advocating converting a 23 window bus, a split window bug, or a low light Ghia. Those vehicles are icons of their time and place in the ACVW lineup. Tthink how many more classic ACVWs would be enjoyed daily if they were converted to more comfortable and reliable platforms.
I consider myself a centrist. I appreciate the purist's drive for absolute correctness and I also support the resto-modder who wants classic looks with updated mechanicals. I know my Subaru converted Ghia, when completed, will not command the price of a matching numbers 70 Cabriolet (which mine happens to be at the moment) but I want to drive it with as many modern comforts and conveniences as I can wrap in that beautiful classic body.
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kiwighia68
See my build on TheSamba at:
The K_R_A_K_E_N_N : a 70 Ghia Convertible reinterpreted |
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c21darrel
Samba Member
Joined: January 22, 2009
Posts: 8211
Location: San Dimas
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| Posted: Thu May 17, 2018 5:21 pm Post subject: Re: Matching Numbers ? |
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there are plenty of different groups that may dislike your subi conversion. A few,
One group is upset because you will need to hack the engine compartment to make it work.
Another group will dislike the idea because it wont be VW powered.
Another group believes only stock is the right way.
These cars are getting old and rare, value will be lost.
Another would never do it because they drive their VW to re-live there younger days when they daily drove one. A subi has no soul after all.
....
On the other hand it will be easy to drive, simple to maintain and have more reliable power. They sound good too.
It all only means that these old cars have created plenty of memories and emotion to the owners, they care. I think thats a good thing.
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GhiaBuild
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=481184
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https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=693583&highlight=67+dc
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Era Vulgaris
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Joined: August 22, 2012
Posts: 1677
Location: Raleigh, NC
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| Posted: Thu May 17, 2018 5:49 pm Post subject: Re: Matching Numbers ? |
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| Evil_Fiz wrote: |
Tthink how many more classic ACVWs would be enjoyed daily if they were converted to more comfortable and reliable platforms.
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I have no problem whatsoever with the subi conversions. It's your car, do what you like. I'm sure it's a blast to drive. But at that point I don't think it's a collectible car anymore because it's deviated so far from stock. Just look at the vintage resto-mod american muscle cars. They don't carry the value that a similar stock numbers matching car does either. It's just down to what you're into.
I've owned four air-cooled cars in the last six years. Every single one of them I drove daily. In fact, I've found them on the whole to be more reliable than some modern water-cooled cars I know of. And the extreme simplicity and minimal maintenance that they require is what I find appealing. I don't think the drivetrain has anything to do with whether or not people drive their car daily.
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Currently own:
66 Karmann Ghia, L390 Gulf Blue, under construction, here: www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=760505&highlight=
99 Mazda MX-5 10AE, Sapphire Blue Mica, 6 speed, LSD
Previously owned:
98 Porsche Boxster, silver, 2.5L -- 67 Karmann Ghia, Black, 1500sp -- 98 BMW Z3, Atlanta Blue Metallic, 2.8L I6 -- 75 Porsche 914, Laguna Blue, 2270cc -- 72 Porsche 914, Signal Orange, 1.7 FI -- 74 Karmann Ghia, Black, 1600dp -- 74 Triumph TR6 with O.D., sapphire blue |
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EverettB 
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Joined: April 11, 2000
Posts: 69813
Location: Phoenix Metro
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| Posted: Thu May 17, 2018 6:04 pm Post subject: Re: Matching Numbers ? |
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| djkeev wrote: |
I seriously question the accuracy of the engine numbers on this Ghia Chart.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/info/chassisdatingkg.php
Engine numbers should closely follow the Beetle production run.
To my knowledge Karmann wasn't stamping their own numbers into engines.
These were built upon current Year Beetle Chassis and running gear.
Dave |
The Ghia engine #s on that page are sort of wacky but did come from the same place as the VIN #s there.
The Ghia page does have this note at the top though:
| Quote: |
| For engine numbers, refer to the Beetle listings |
Do that 
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Onceler
Samba Member
Joined: May 28, 2010
Posts: 1647
Location: Indiana
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| Posted: Thu May 17, 2018 6:39 pm Post subject: Re: Matching Numbers ? |
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I like the subie conversions, it's like the equivalent of installing an LS in a 69 Camaro, as long as the Camaro started as a rust bucket, and so did the VW. Even so, both swaps can be reversed if the value were to skyrocket for former rust buckets. Who knows in a few years if electric takes off, and gas prices skyrocket, installing modern electric drivetrain will increase value. The modern American street rods have in the past out valued restored cars, but the past can never be relied on for what the futures instore. It's all a crap shoot, do what you like, I usually sell the sob's and buy something else before I can realize much appreciated value, it's a hobby for me after all.
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1972 Karmann Ghia |
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crazy tarzan
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Joined: July 18, 2011
Posts: 109
Location: Wyoming
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| Posted: Fri May 18, 2018 6:34 am Post subject: Re: Matching Numbers ? |
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I've a low light. I'm planning a resto-mod subi swap. But my car is already non original since it sits on an IRS pan.
Do I think a full resto with matching #'s is worth more? Certainly. I love the many restoration threads, and seeing a car look as good as or better than when it was produced.
I like seeing the many slightly modded/updated motor builds.
However that's not my cup of tea. In fact I'm planning on setting up my car to my liking, well aware that I'll not get any real return on dollars and effort invested into my ghia.
So is a numbers matching car worth more, more collectible? Yes, to a certain group. To another not so much. And to another my car will end up more valuable. |
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