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003 Automatic differential bearings
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Danno5
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Joined: March 19, 2016
Posts: 47
Location: Leavenworth, KS
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 7:45 pm    Post subject: 003 Automatic differential bearings Reply with quote

I am putting together a parts order for rebuilding my 003 and the differential. I have found some stuff, but I am not sure what else I need to make a complete kit, especially differential bearings.

I read the super-helpful post by Multi69s and I know the basics:
1. Get a brown type 3 manual. Check.
2. Pick up a master overhaul kit. Seems to be catch-as-catch-can from the three different places I have seen mentioned so far (Rockauto, Cobra transmissions, bulkpart). Sending off for this (probably from Cobra) after I get a chance to thoroughly search for other suppliers.

I also want to take care of the final drive bearings in the differential I read Ray Greenwood mention in some older posts.

I looked at the Type 4 parts manual on Volkswagen Classic Parts and came up with one part number: 113517185B. It looks like one for each side. That also matches the bearing cross match in the samba. I can get a hold of that part easily enough, but that can't be all I need can it? What other bearings do I need to pick up for the diff?

Totally sorry if I missed a post that covers this! I have looked at so many useful STF and samba posts that I really need to organize my bookmarks!
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
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Location: Oklahoma City
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 9:36 pm    Post subject: Re: 003 Automatic differential bearings Reply with quote

You need to be sure for the final drive that your kit has all of the seals between the quto section and final drive section, a new governor shaft seal......and for bearings.....you have two differential side output shaft bearings and two pinion shaft bearings......and new outer races for each.
These are two different part #s.

And......changing EITHER differntial side bearings or pinion shaft bearings is NOT just simple replacement. It means adjusting the ring and pinion mesh and it means setting the preload on both the pinion shaft bearings and the differntial side shaft bearings.

This is a critical job. Getting it wrong will destroy the differntial. You need an accurate dial indicator, a GOOD inch pound torque wrench.....and since you likely will not have the array of factory VW setting jigs.....you will need to be patient.
On one hand its not that hard if you have an inch pound wrench.....to set up the bearing preload with just the pinion shaft in....and then set up the differntial bearing preload with with just differential installed.....then install together and check total turning torque.....then use some bearing paste to check the contact pattern.....but its a time consuming tedious job.

Also....check that bearing part #. The one you listed.....appears to be for a type 4 FOUR SPEED transmission.

Scroll down to the bottom of this page
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/info/bearingref_t4.php

Note that the transmission in the listing at the top of the page has four gears.....not 3.

Ray
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Danno5
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Location: Leavenworth, KS
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 12:33 pm    Post subject: Re: 003 Automatic differential bearings Reply with quote

Hi Ray,

I missed the pinion shaft bearing and the 004 designation because I was a doofus. Embarassed Just shows I am definitely a GSL (German as a Second Language) person. I read that part number off a page clearly marked 004. Embarassed

If I am understanding it correctly these are the correct diagrams and part#'s
This is the 003 output shafts:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


and the 003 pinion shaft:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


So! The amended shopping list
1. two #23's above (pinion shaft bearing) = 003519251
2. two #14's above (output shaft bearing = 003519185
3. Make sure I have a master kit that deals with the transmission and the differential. Weird to have to think of them in two pieces!

I read a little further into my type 3 bentley and found the section about end-play you mention. I honestly feel like one of my students when they don't read directions. There was also a table talking about which adjusting rings you work with based on what part you replace. I remember seeing that both will have to be adjusted because I am replacing both sets of bearings.

The torque wrench is another situation entirely. I imagine for the price I paid mine cannot be good. I saw a post where you picked up one (Seekonk) that was several times more expensive than what I have. I will go back and look at the Bentley to check torque values and see what I can afford with those capabilities.
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 6:10 pm    Post subject: Re: 003 Automatic differential bearings Reply with quote

Danno5 wrote:
Hi Ray,

I missed the pinion shaft bearing and the 004 designation because I was a doofus. Embarassed Just shows I am definitely a GSL (German as a Second Language) person. I read that part number off a page clearly marked 004. Embarassed

If I am understanding it correctly these are the correct diagrams and part#'s
This is the 003 output shafts:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


and the 003 pinion shaft:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


So! The amended shopping list
1. two #23's above (pinion shaft bearing) = 003519251
2. two #14's above (output shaft bearing = 003519185
3. Make sure I have a master kit that deals with the transmission and the differential. Weird to have to think of them in two pieces!

I read a little further into my type 3 bentley and found the section about end-play you mention. I honestly feel like one of my students when they don't read directions. There was also a table talking about which adjusting rings you work with based on what part you replace. I remember seeing that both will have to be adjusted because I am replacing both sets of bearings.

The torque wrench is another situation entirely. I imagine for the price I paid mine cannot be good. I saw a post where you picked up one (Seekonk) that was several times more expensive than what I have. I will go back and look at the Bentley to check torque values and see what I can afford with those capabilities.


For a few times use....this one will work just fine. ....or something like it.
https://www.amazon.com/Neiko-03727A-4-Inch-Torque-Wrench/dp/B01FMXEWQC

Without a dial and a memory needle its a little harder to use....but get one...and I will show you how for pennies....to tape a strip of paper next to the scale....then go down to hobby lobby or office depot....and buy some red or blue lead for a draftsman lead holder....use a small piece of tape to attache a small lead pointer to the beam...just touching the paper.

You spin the bearing rapidly first...then push the lead down to touch paper and give it another spin or two....and the lead point will draw a line on the paper you can read next to the inch pounds. Works great! Wink

Yep...you have the right parts now. Be sure you get the outer races for those bearings....because not many of them come with them....so check on it before you order.

But.....slow down for a minute and start a thread here....or you will end up badly.

Unless someone loans you the jigs and fixtures for setting this up that you see in the Bentlet.....you will not get it done without methodical....but not all that ugly...work.

Ok....please tell me you have not disassembled the final drive yet....and you are just at the stage where you are doing a total rebuild and doing the due diligence of changing the final drive bearings.....which is excellent by the way.

But if you have taken it apart and have not stopped to measure BEFORE you take it apart.....this will be a LOT of work.

So lets get started. The type 3 final drive is a work of art. Tough as nails. Hopefully you have been having no isses....and you just want to change the bearings. It will make things easier....meaning technically its in decent adjustment right now. We want to measure WHAT that adjustment is....so we can get back to it after putting the bearings in.

First...lets get this out of the way.....as far as the differential itself.....unless you are replacing internal components.....once you get it out...all you want to do is open it up.....because it makes removing the lid side bearing simpler because there are two access holes under the bearing to use a puller, press or drift.

Once its open....simply inspect that no gears have chips or erosion in the valleys of the teeth...and check that tbe dish shaped thrust washers are not worn paper thin or ragged on the edges....and everything is fine. Just bolt it bsck together the same way it came apart and use a torque wrench.
If memory...and the book are correct there is no spyder gear spacer tube inside the differential.....so you can do a damn fair job of measuring the wear and play with just a dial indicator.
What you do.....is after cleaning all of the oil and grease out...and just lubing with light oil like WD40.... attache CV hub and the side spacer ring to the long side of the differential.....support the differential lightly in a vise with the lid side up.....and hang about a 15 lb dumbbell or weight from the CV hub. This takes all the slack out of the stack up in one direction.
Put the other CV in....and push down.....and apply the dial indicator and 0 it. With a flashlight and a 1/4" stiff steel or brass rod.....reach carefully through an access hole....and pry up lightly on the short side....output shaft gear. You much it lifts up....shows up on the dial indicator.
What this tells you is what is worn out of the thrust washers.....part #16.

Chances are about 90% good...that unless you had an oil mixing episode or ran dry....that all will be good.

The real key.....getting back to measuring before disassembly.....is to first clean it squeaky clean and dry for the moment. Then get some yellow or blue gear checking paste. It used to be lead paste. Paint the teeth on the ring gear with it and....wrap long strips of torn plastic trash bag around the installed output CV hubs....so it drags and supplys a load.....and turn the input shaft through a few revs. This will make a distinctive pattern of mesh on the gear teeth.
Take good pictures of that. You want to make sure you can get it to make these marks again.

Now....with a dial indicator....first lock the input shaft with anything you can find. Then set the indicator up against a gear tooth on the ring gear and measure backlash. Write that down. If its still in spec....probably will be.....keep it that way by not removing the adjuster on the short side of the differential bearing if you can....just remoge the one on the long side.

But if you have to remove it.....count the EXACT number of total and partial turns required to remove any of the adjusters....and mark the start and end point with a scriber.

The pinion shaft position is located by a shim...and the bearing in the pinion gear end.
Count the exact number of turns as well when removibg the retaining ring on the pinion bearing on the other end.

Now....when you get the bearing off of the gear end of the pinion shaft...do not destroy it doing so. Take that bearing...and its race, oil them and stack them up under a dial indicator on a sheet of glass. Find out how thick they are combined.
Between your two new bearings....find the one that is the closest in total thickness. If they did not come with races...you can mix and match new races to get close. You want a set that is identical or up to say.....no more than .001" to .0015" thicker.....not thinner. Use that one for the gear end.

The point....is that between bearing and race thickness and the existing shim between gear and bearing....part #9....is to get the pinion gear back into the same exact "space" it was....within about .001".

Everything else from there is pretty easy. Get there....and we can help you set it up.
Ray
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Danno5
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Joined: March 19, 2016
Posts: 47
Location: Leavenworth, KS
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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 8:06 pm    Post subject: Re: 003 Automatic differential bearings Reply with quote

Sorry I haven't replied in a while. Final exams are a distraction, but now they are over!

Quote:
Ok....please tell me you have not disassembled the final drive yet....and you are just at the stage where you are doing a total rebuild and doing the due diligence of changing the final drive bearings.....which is excellent by the way.


Good news on this question. The differential is in the car, so no issues there. Just planning ahead. I will check out the dial gauge torque wrench you referenced from Amazon and hit you up for specifics on that tip when I get it in! I plan on doing this after the transmission rebuild. I will definitely scope out the outer races while plying the parts counters. I will also set up a thread when I get everything in and start setting it up.

Oh and I can't thank you enough for the detailed reply on the setup for this job. I plan on printing this and keeping it with my type 3 bentley.
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