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74 Thing
Samba Member
Joined: September 02, 2004
Posts: 7393
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 Posted: Mon May 21, 2018 6:47 am Post subject: Re: Help me! New rebuild. Low oil pressure. |
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It is sucking air or there is something restricting oil flow.
Is the pickup tube supported by the small stud on the bottom? I had one break loose and then loosen the swedged portion on the other side of the tube before.
As someone previously mentioned check the strainer screen.
http://www.cbperformance.com/product-p/1273.htm
Did you make sure the ports in the case and oil pump are aligned? I had to port mine so the holes matched.
It should not go to zero then bounce back up. |
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[email protected]
Samba Member
Joined: August 15, 2002
Posts: 4394
Location: Brew City
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| Posted: Mon May 21, 2018 8:39 am Post subject: Re: Help me! New rebuild. Low oil pressure. |
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| VW_Jimbo wrote: |
I just finished a 2125 type1 engine build. I have very low oil pressure at idle which I cannot remedy.
Engine has a New Shadex oil pump 26mm. 1-1/2 deep sump installed. Oil pick up tube was extended to 13mm above the inside bottom of sump screen. I tapped and plugged the oil pump output and the case. I tapped into the main oil galley, as I have a dozen times. I have a remote filter, mounted under the drivers rear fender. The oil filter is a WIX 5151R. I originally poured in 30wt dyno oil and ran the engine. I check for oil leaks and the idiot light before breaking the cam in. Broke the cam in at 3000rpms for 20 minutes. Shut it down. Let er cool off. Changed the oil (dyno 30 weight) and started to set some basics. That’s when it started. The oil pressure light came on - solid!
I figured it may be the aftermarket oil relief springs, so I exchanged them both for stock springs. I noted no difference. I then changed out the relief pistons (maybe). Nope no difference.
Shut it done. Let it cool off and let me think. Threaded my oil pressure gauge into the hole and measured low - zero - oil pressure at idle.
Car has sat for a week, while I think and go back through it all. I can not come up with anything. This morning I changed the oil to 20-50 and the pressure improved but it is not steady at idle. Check out this video, the issue is really obvious starting at 2:08. But before then I run the engine up to 2900 and get around 30psi, engine at normal temperature. That looks good to me in my experience, but I am not very well schooled in modified VW engine lubrication systems. So I am asking for help.
I am missing something or my case has an internal issue! I have driven it around the block, maybe a mile round trip. Runs awesome, but coming to a complete stop, engine rpms get to idle (875rpm), the idiot light shines brightly. Off idle and running down the road, no light, no noise. Engine seems strong and eager. I just want to mash the pedalbut the oil pressure is stopping me.
Here’s a short video of it in the garage.
Link
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Were you running this case previously or is this an unknown case to you? If you were running it before and it didn't have low oil pressure, the problem is in something you did or with a combo of the parts you used for the build. If this is an unknown case, you may have worn lifter bores, loose pick up, etc, etc.
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VW_Jimbo 
Samba Member
Joined: May 22, 2016
Posts: 9966
Location: Huntington Beach, CA
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| Posted: Mon May 21, 2018 8:42 am Post subject: Re: Help me! New rebuild. Low oil pressure. |
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Again, thank you to all. I am now worried more about the low knock noise I am hearing. So, before that gets worse, the engine is coming back out and a tear down will be done. I will check the pick up tube hole in the engine. I actually devised an able plug to insert into the oil pump case inlet side which would expand to close that port off. I then could have applied an air supply to do a leak down onto the pick up tube, to see if it was detached or loose. Not going to try it out now.
For the future, took two rubber shock tower rubber pieces for a standard front end, cut them down to fit into the suction side of the case at the oil pump. It has an 8mm bolt with washers just small enough to fit inside. Bolt runs through the entire setup. Slide the plug in with the bolt loose. After inserted fully tighten it up till it will hold an air charge or a vacuum. Either listen for bubbles or a whistle or watch a vacuum gauge if you hook one up. At the pick up side.
Anyways, that thought may help someone else out at some point down the rod. Not going to do me any good now!
_________________
Jimbo
There is never enough time to do it right the first time, but all the time necessary the second time!
| TDCTDI wrote: |
| Basically, a whole bunch of fuckery to achieve a look. |
| 67rustavenger wrote: |
GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo!  |
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VW_Jimbo
Samba Member
Joined: May 22, 2016
Posts: 9966
Location: Huntington Beach, CA
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| Posted: Mon May 21, 2018 9:01 am Post subject: Re: Help me! New rebuild. Low oil pressure. |
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| [email protected] wrote: |
| Were you running this case previously or is this an unknown case to you? If you were running it before and it didn't have low oil pressure, the problem is in something you did or with a combo of the parts you used for the build. If this is an unknown case, you may have worn lifter bores, loose pick up, etc, etc. |
This is new to me. Purchased from seller here from the Samba classified. So, if it had an issue previously, I will never know. I was going to contact them after I get done chasing water leaks today!!! Woo hoo! Thankfully my IR camera illuminates where they are inside the walls of a house. Wish I could use this camera on this pick up tube!
_________________
Jimbo
There is never enough time to do it right the first time, but all the time necessary the second time!
| TDCTDI wrote: |
| Basically, a whole bunch of fuckery to achieve a look. |
| 67rustavenger wrote: |
| GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo! |
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FreeBug
Samba Member
Joined: March 12, 2012
Posts: 4278
Location: deepest, darkest Switzerland
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| Posted: Mon May 21, 2018 9:35 am Post subject: Re: Help me! New rebuild. Low oil pressure. |
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| I would have a close look at the front pressure regulating spring and piston.Looks like it could be jamming open, after a pressure rise, and then takes a while to wiggle itself back into place....at least that's what the video makes me think. With Guesswork. |
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74 Thing
Samba Member
Joined: September 02, 2004
Posts: 7393
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VW_Jimbo
Samba Member
Joined: May 22, 2016
Posts: 9966
Location: Huntington Beach, CA
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| Posted: Mon May 21, 2018 9:32 pm Post subject: Re: Help me! New rebuild. Low oil pressure. |
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| FreeBug wrote: |
| I would have a close look at the front pressure regulating spring and piston.Looks like it could be jamming open, after a pressure rise, and then takes a while to wiggle itself back into place....at least that's what the video makes me think. With Guesswork. |
That a great hypothesis! It seems plausible, but how do I prove something like that. I would love to measure that bore, but how? Do you think there may be a small ridge where the piston cocked? Or do I just bore it, turn a larger piston and test it somehow.
This is what I believe to be a even larger problem. That being the ability to prove beyond a doubt that the problem has been repaired without assembling the entire engine and running it. I would rather buy a new case and move forward.
_________________
Jimbo
There is never enough time to do it right the first time, but all the time necessary the second time!
| TDCTDI wrote: |
| Basically, a whole bunch of fuckery to achieve a look. |
| 67rustavenger wrote: |
| GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo! |
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VW_Jimbo
Samba Member
Joined: May 22, 2016
Posts: 9966
Location: Huntington Beach, CA
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| Posted: Mon May 21, 2018 9:51 pm Post subject: Re: Help me! New rebuild. Low oil pressure. |
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| 74 Thing wrote: |
| Did you clean up the bores for the oil pressure/relief valves? They get beat up over time and need to be cut. |
That is news to me. Never heard that before or been on this side of an issue like this.
| Quote: |
| John @ Aircooled.net used to rent a tool to spot face those. |
I may need to find out if that resource is still available. Thanks for that gem!
Again, thank you. Your reply got me out in the garage tonight, to go pull one of my other cases and take a look at it. I believe, if I understand it correctly, pull the plug and tap it for a threaded plug. While the plug is out, insert an expander and then expand the pick up tube while in the case. Well worth a try, if I did not hear any knocking. F---! I know that deep knock noise, all too well. It used to mean I was going to make a fist of cash, this time however, it is going to cost me a fist of cash. Damn it! Luckily I love working on my Bug!
_________________
Jimbo
There is never enough time to do it right the first time, but all the time necessary the second time!
| TDCTDI wrote: |
| Basically, a whole bunch of fuckery to achieve a look. |
| 67rustavenger wrote: |
| GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo! |
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[email protected]
Samba Member
Joined: August 15, 2002
Posts: 4394
Location: Brew City
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| Posted: Tue May 22, 2018 7:12 am Post subject: Re: Help me! New rebuild. Low oil pressure. |
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| VW_Jimbo wrote: |
| 74 Thing wrote: |
| Did you clean up the bores for the oil pressure/relief valves? They get beat up over time and need to be cut. |
That is news to me. Never heard that before or been on this side of an issue like this.
| Quote: |
| John @ Aircooled.net used to rent a tool to spot face those. |
I may need to find out if that resource is still available. Thanks for that gem!
Again, thank you. Your reply got me out in the garage tonight, to go pull one of my other cases and take a look at it. I believe, if I understand it correctly, pull the plug and tap it for a threaded plug. While the plug is out, insert an expander and then expand the pick up tube while in the case. Well worth a try, if I did not hear any knocking. F---! I know that deep knock noise, all too well. It used to mean I was going to make a fist of cash, this time however, it is going to cost me a fist of cash. Damn it! Luckily I love working on my Bug! |
I machine the pressure relief bores on every case I use to build an engine and every case I sell. All of my engines have a MIN of 10lbs at idle.(most have a MIN of 15lbs at idle)
_________________
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VW_Jimbo
Samba Member
Joined: May 22, 2016
Posts: 9966
Location: Huntington Beach, CA
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| Posted: Tue May 22, 2018 8:08 am Post subject: Re: Help me! New rebuild. Low oil pressure. |
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Hey Roy, boring those cases is new to me. Back in the 80s and 90s, we just made sure the piston moved in the case and that the springs were in the right holes. Never had one, not have oil pressure. Ever! That’s hundreds of engines! So, this whole low pressure event is another education moment in my life. Seems as if I am continuously going to school!
If you are matching the relief bores, are you also matching new pistons? Do you sell those new pistons? I am sure I could machine one, but why if you already sell them. I am also guessing but you are also surfacing where that piston mates with the case on the top of the piston - right? Seems likely. I know that it will get checked, I just have to figure out how to check it. I would think some air pressure, but how do I seal all of the oil supply opening to the lifters, cam, crank? May a wax plug with a thin piece of sheet metal between the case and the bearing. That would seal the cam and crank. I can insert an expandable plug in the oil pump. But how do I seal the lifter bores. The cam bearing can be plugged like the mains. It’s the 4 lifters, well maybe I need to get four 1/2 inch pipe stoppers. We use these rubber plugs in plumbing to insert into pipes to stop the flow of water out the end of an open pipe. It is a rubber plug with a threaded shaft that squeezes the rubber, thus expanding its outer diameter. Maybe four of those. Am I missing any holes.
Oh wait, the cooler, block off plate with seals. The pressure switch, I have a nipple and a cap with the correct threading. Any other openings?
Thanks for letting me ramble.
_________________
Jimbo
There is never enough time to do it right the first time, but all the time necessary the second time!
| TDCTDI wrote: |
| Basically, a whole bunch of fuckery to achieve a look. |
| 67rustavenger wrote: |
| GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo! |
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74 Thing
Samba Member
Joined: September 02, 2004
Posts: 7393
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VW_Jimbo
Samba Member
Joined: May 22, 2016
Posts: 9966
Location: Huntington Beach, CA
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| Posted: Tue May 22, 2018 8:35 am Post subject: Re: Help me! New rebuild. Low oil pressure. |
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74 Thing - thank you. I will read them later tonight. This community is awesome! Thank you everyone. You know, 20 years ago, I would have had to just figure it out with nothing to go on except my gut and a small finite of information gathers from several close people into cars, not exclusive to Bugs. Now, the wealth of experience and knowledge is unbelievable compared to back then. I have not even touched the car since last weekend and I already have several things to check, to measure, solutions to hypothetical scenarios. It is mind boggling!!!
Again, thank you all!
_________________
Jimbo
There is never enough time to do it right the first time, but all the time necessary the second time!
| TDCTDI wrote: |
| Basically, a whole bunch of fuckery to achieve a look. |
| 67rustavenger wrote: |
| GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo! |
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mcmscott
Samba Member
Joined: March 12, 2010
Posts: 4856
Location: sanger ca
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| Posted: Tue May 22, 2018 8:47 am Post subject: Re: Help me! New rebuild. Low oil pressure. |
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Do you have a pic of the side of the engine case?
_________________
There are no stupid questions, only stupid people,
68 Ghia
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VW_Jimbo
Samba Member
Joined: May 22, 2016
Posts: 9966
Location: Huntington Beach, CA
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| Posted: Tue May 22, 2018 8:50 am Post subject: Re: Help me! New rebuild. Low oil pressure. |
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| mcmscott wrote: |
| Do you have a pic of the side of the engine case? |
Sorry for my confusion. Which side? Outside 1/2 or 3/4
Or the inside 3/4? Or 1/2?
_________________
Jimbo
There is never enough time to do it right the first time, but all the time necessary the second time!
| TDCTDI wrote: |
| Basically, a whole bunch of fuckery to achieve a look. |
| 67rustavenger wrote: |
| GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo! |
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mcmscott
Samba Member
Joined: March 12, 2010
Posts: 4856
Location: sanger ca
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| Posted: Tue May 22, 2018 9:56 am Post subject: Re: Help me! New rebuild. Low oil pressure. |
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| VW_Jimbo wrote: |
| mcmscott wrote: |
| Do you have a pic of the side of the engine case? |
Sorry for my confusion. Which side? Outside 1/2 or 3/4
Or the inside 3/4? Or 1/2? |
Side of the oil sump
_________________
There are no stupid questions, only stupid people,
68 Ghia
67 T-1
65 Notch
02 Mexican beetle
74 Thing
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07 Nomad
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VW_Jimbo
Samba Member
Joined: May 22, 2016
Posts: 9966
Location: Huntington Beach, CA
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| Posted: Tue May 22, 2018 4:36 pm Post subject: Re: Help me! New rebuild. Low oil pressure. |
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Hoping one of these will work.
Sorry you said oil sump,
One of those work?
_________________
Jimbo
There is never enough time to do it right the first time, but all the time necessary the second time!
| TDCTDI wrote: |
| Basically, a whole bunch of fuckery to achieve a look. |
| 67rustavenger wrote: |
| GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo! |
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mcmscott
Samba Member
Joined: March 12, 2010
Posts: 4856
Location: sanger ca
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| Posted: Tue May 22, 2018 5:09 pm Post subject: Re: Help me! New rebuild. Low oil pressure. |
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Those are fine, the only reason I asked for those is I had a customer that had a "mofoco" case from some time ago that would not build oil pressure at idle no matter what, the case had mofoco engraved into the side of it. We eventually used another case and he kept all his old parts. Did not know if he sold them in the classifieds or not, but that definatly is not the same case. Carry on
_________________
There are no stupid questions, only stupid people,
68 Ghia
67 T-1
65 Notch
02 Mexican beetle
74 Thing
15 Long travel rail
07 Nomad
05 f-250 |
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VW_Jimbo
Samba Member
Joined: May 22, 2016
Posts: 9966
Location: Huntington Beach, CA
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| Posted: Tue May 22, 2018 5:20 pm Post subject: Re: Help me! New rebuild. Low oil pressure. |
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| mcmscott wrote: |
| Those are fine, the only reason I asked for those is I had a customer that had a "mofoco" case from some time ago that would not build oil pressure at idle no matter what, the case had mofoco engraved into the side of it. We eventually used another case and he kept all his old parts. Did not know if he sold them in the classifieds or not, but that definatly is not the same case. Carry on |
Cool! I thought you were going to check a part number or some other engine casting item and tell me I am screwed! So, I am thankful that's all it was!
Thanks for everything you have given so far! Appreciate it! You ever make it out to Huntington Beach, we out to go drink a few beers at my favorite brewery, right here, my treat. Walking distance from the house. 4 Sons Brewery! Damn good beer!
_________________
Jimbo
There is never enough time to do it right the first time, but all the time necessary the second time!
| TDCTDI wrote: |
| Basically, a whole bunch of fuckery to achieve a look. |
| 67rustavenger wrote: |
| GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo! |
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Danwvw
Samba Member
Joined: July 31, 2012
Posts: 8892
Location: Oregon Coast
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| Posted: Tue May 22, 2018 8:17 pm Post subject: Re: Help me! New rebuild. Low oil pressure. |
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One thing you can do is Plastigauge the meeting surfaces of the case to see how well it comes together when mocked up. Also when the final mockup is done with the crank cam, main bearings, cam bearings etc... installed and the case torqued with all it's bolts at least the 6 12mm and the 4 cam ends 8mm bolts you can tell a lot of things like bearing crush and cam bearing play etc.. A little extra practice assembly and disassembly.
Most important though will be oil pump hole intake alignment at the case and the pick-up tube deal and the oil pump tang to cam engage fit as well as cam fit after you seat it. Still no glue!
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VW_Jimbo
Samba Member
Joined: May 22, 2016
Posts: 9966
Location: Huntington Beach, CA
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| Posted: Wed May 23, 2018 10:03 pm Post subject: Re: Help me! New rebuild. Low oil pressure. |
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Dan, thanks for the input. I will see what the case does during the re-rebuild. I like the idea of checking the crush of the case at the bearings. I always disliked not being able to plastiguage during assembly. I guess that is one advantage engines with main bearing caps have!
So, had a few hours today after work. Dropped the engine, stripped it down to the long block, set it on the engine stand and started disassembling it. Only got to the rods, managed to getthem off before I had to clean up! Looks like it was oil starvation to the components, as I supected, since I had really low engine oil pressure after start up. Damn it!!!!! I hate relearning shit! Oh well, no use in crying over it. I will get it cleaned up and rebuilt again!
Here are several pictures of the tear down. I only got the rods off, still need to get to the crank, maybe on the weekend!
Spark plugs. 1 & 2 running rich, 3 & 4 almost dialed in, maybe a little lean. Maybe this next time I will get to twist the carbs a little more.
Heads, looks like 1 & 2 were a little rich. 3 looks rich, but why the clean exhaust. Number 4 looks like what I would suspect it to look like.
1 & 2 pistons dont look bad.
But what is this on the bottom of the piston, gallin of the piston wall. Can you say oil starvaion.
The top too!
Lets keep going. By the way, all of the pistons looks like that. I might try and salvage them, but need to clean them up and look really closely at them.
Check out the number one rod. Never seen a rod stay erect like that. I think it might be happy to see me. What do you guys thin?
Here is the number one rod bearing and the crank journal.
Number 1 Crank journal. Looks nice from this distance!
Number 2
Number 3 & 4
Any input so far?
Stay tuned! Hopefully I can get more time in on it tomorrow!
Fun, fun, fun!
_________________
Jimbo
There is never enough time to do it right the first time, but all the time necessary the second time!
| TDCTDI wrote: |
| Basically, a whole bunch of fuckery to achieve a look. |
| 67rustavenger wrote: |
| GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo! |
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