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funkgeek Samba Member
Joined: August 02, 2013 Posts: 13 Location: Springfield, MO
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Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 5:45 am Post subject: Re: Fuel Line Fuel hose - Quality, Makers, Sizes FAQ |
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scrivyscriv - any advice on how to convert from rubber to stainless tubing for the amateur backyard VW mechanic? I have a 78 bay that was converted to dual carb by PO and am thinking about going that route as I start to rebuild it rather than rubber. Gates Barricade being amazing or not, metal just seems more resilient to me and I'm willing to pay for the peace of mind.
robbie of airschooled.com fame is coming by in mid May and I'd like to get everything I need before he shows up. |
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Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50262
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Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 6:06 am Post subject: Re: Fuel Line Fuel hose - Quality, Makers, Sizes FAQ |
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funkgeek wrote: |
scrivyscriv - any advice on how to convert from rubber to stainless tubing for the amateur backyard VW mechanic? I have a 78 bay that was converted to dual carb by PO and am thinking about going that route as I start to rebuild it rather than rubber. Gates Barricade being amazing or not, metal just seems more resilient to me and I'm willing to pay for the peace of mind.
robbie of airschooled.com fame is coming by in mid May and I'd like to get everything I need before he shows up. |
Unless you have a way to connect the steel line to the carbs you are going to need some rubber hose thus defeating your efforts. Do consider adding a marine anti-siphon valve near the outlet to your tank to prevent gravity flow if your fuel lines fail. The correct fuel pump relay that will cut power to your fuel pump should the engine stall is a good idea as well. |
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TomWesty Samba Member
Joined: November 23, 2007 Posts: 3482 Location: Wyoming,USA
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Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 6:29 am Post subject: Re: Fuel Line Fuel hose - Quality, Makers, Sizes FAQ |
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funkgeek wrote: |
scrivyscriv - any advice on how to convert from rubber to stainless tubing for the amateur backyard VW mechanic? I have a 78 bay that was converted to dual carb by PO and am thinking about going that route as I start to rebuild it rather than rubber. Gates Barricade being amazing or not, metal just seems more resilient to me and I'm willing to pay for the peace of mind.
robbie of airschooled.com fame is coming by in mid May and I'd like to get everything I need before he shows up. |
Metal will work harden at bends, and engines vibrate. The flexibility of fuel hose can be a good thing. The worst fuel leak I ever had on my bus was where the metal fuel line passed through the tin. Over time, vibration and oxidation had caused the rubber grommet to deteriorate and the tin chafed through the steel line. _________________ If you haven't bled on them, you haven't worked on them.
Visit: www.tomcoryell.com and check out my music! |
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Busstom Samba Member
Joined: November 23, 2014 Posts: 3790 Location: San Jose, CA
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Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 9:13 am Post subject: Re: Fuel Line Fuel hose - Quality, Makers, Sizes FAQ |
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TomWesty wrote: |
funkgeek wrote: |
scrivyscriv - any advice on how to convert from rubber to stainless tubing for the amateur backyard VW mechanic? I have a 78 bay that was converted to dual carb by PO and am thinking about going that route as I start to rebuild it rather than rubber. Gates Barricade being amazing or not, metal just seems more resilient to me and I'm willing to pay for the peace of mind.
robbie of airschooled.com fame is coming by in mid May and I'd like to get everything I need before he shows up. |
Metal will work harden at bends, and engines vibrate. The flexibility of fuel hose can be a good thing. The worst fuel leak I ever had on my bus was where the metal fuel line passed through the tin. Over time, vibration and oxidation had caused the rubber grommet to deteriorate and the tin chafed through the steel line. |
Yep...I like rubber from the carbs/TB(s) all the way to the body, for this reason. |
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Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50262
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Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 10:13 am Post subject: Re: Fuel Line Fuel hose - Quality, Makers, Sizes FAQ |
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I have to say that I prefer metal and have removed added aftermarket fuel filters from my old heavy metal rigs and put back in nice sturdy steel lines as per the manufacturer and I would gladly go with steel on a VW if it were reasonable easy to do so, having only a single piece of hose low down and out of the engine compartment to allow for engine movement, but none of the carbs I have ever run on an aircooled VW have lent themselves to this, so rubber it is.
I do have steel from my tank to just before my fuel pump, a system that has worked just fine for 30 years, but that everyone says will not work. GEEZ
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mr matt Samba Member
Joined: May 26, 2005 Posts: 815 Location: southeast Pa
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Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 4:38 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel Line Fuel hose - Quality, Makers, Sizes FAQ |
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I am still learning all of this....
Is this video conducive to the discussion?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGHLlaygibc
Link
_________________ 1955 3-fold semaphore Oval beetle
1971 Convertible beetle
1977 Westfalia, FI, Berlin interior |
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Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50262
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Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 7:15 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel Line Fuel hose - Quality, Makers, Sizes FAQ |
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Not sure how the demand valve functions or whether it is necessary in a Bay fuel supply. It sounds like it is there to keep a pressurized tank from forcing fuel through the fuel lines and into the engine. Since Bays shouldn't be seeing extra pressure in the tank I don't know whether it would add to a level of safety or not.
Time to do some research. |
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21475 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 11:12 am Post subject: Re: Fuel Line Fuel hose - Quality, Makers, Sizes FAQ |
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Wildthings wrote: |
Not sure how the demand valve functions or whether it is necessary in a Bay fuel supply. It sounds like it is there to keep a pressurized tank from forcing fuel through the fuel lines and into the engine. Since Bays shouldn't be seeing extra pressure in the tank I don't know whether it would add to a level of safety or not.
Time to do some research. |
Its a "marine" thing (maybe some racing too). It necessary on a boat because they are required to have fully sealed fuel tanks so they cannot spring a leak and pollute.
So evaporation can cause pressure and cause a pressurized spurt of fuel to the carbed engine. So the anti-siphon valve is just what its says...but the fuel demand valve only lest fuel go to the engine when the fuel demands it. Its really just a differential pressure valve.
The bus or most VW with vented tank going to either atmosphere or a carbon canister do not need it as there is no risk of tank pressure pushing fuel past a carb.
Good explanation of what it does
http://www.attwoodmarine.com/store/product/portable-fuel/fuel-demand-valve
Good diagram of what it is.
http://www.attwoodmarine.com/userfiles/store/product/files/1343/69487-ifdvvalveinstallinstr-rc.pdf
Ray |
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aeromech Samba Member
Joined: January 24, 2006 Posts: 16926 Location: San Diego, California
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Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 11:33 am Post subject: Re: Fuel Line Fuel hose - Quality, Makers, Sizes FAQ |
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Here's some pictures of how I did a type 1 a few years ago. Be sure and use flex lines every so often to prevent the lines from cracking due to vibration
_________________ Lead Mechanic: San Diego Air and Space Museum
Licensed Airframe and Powerplant Mechanic
Licensed Pilot (Single engine Land)
Boeing 727,737-200-300-400,757,767
Airbus A319,320,321
DC9/MD80
BAe146
Fokker F28/F100
VW type 1 1962,63,65,69,72
VW Type 2 1971 (3 ea.) 1978, 1969
VW Jetta
VW Passat
Capable of leaping tall buildings in a single bound |
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scrivyscriv Samba Electrician
Joined: October 04, 2011 Posts: 2918 Location: Memphis
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Posted: Mon May 21, 2018 4:10 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel Line Fuel hose - Quality, Makers, Sizes FAQ |
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funkgeek wrote: |
scrivyscriv - any advice on how to convert from rubber to stainless tubing for the amateur backyard VW mechanic? I have a 78 bay that was converted to dual carb by PO and am thinking about going that route as I start to rebuild it rather than rubber. Gates Barricade being amazing or not, metal just seems more resilient to me and I'm willing to pay for the peace of mind.
robbie of airschooled.com fame is coming by in mid May and I'd like to get everything I need before he shows up. |
I don't think it's absolutely necessary to go all hardline.. it's a lot of work with not a big return, compared to other fire prevention things you can do. Stainless tubing is hard to work with because it doesn't bend well and tends to crack at the flare lips if you don't get the end cleaned up perfectly. I have some teflon braided stainless I was going to use for my flex lines but due to Pierburg pump rebuild kits being trash I put that idea on the back burner, so I don't have anything recent to add. _________________ Robert in Memphis
Dünkelgrügen 1967 Java Green bug thread
Engine rebuild thread
If you're ever in the Memphis area, you are welcome to stop by for advice and help. |
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aeromech Samba Member
Joined: January 24, 2006 Posts: 16926 Location: San Diego, California
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Posted: Mon May 21, 2018 4:14 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel Line Fuel hose - Quality, Makers, Sizes FAQ |
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You’re thinking AN but I used MS (swagelok) on my custom lines. Much easier and faster. You always need to have flex hoses too or you’ll stress the stainless. _________________ Lead Mechanic: San Diego Air and Space Museum
Licensed Airframe and Powerplant Mechanic
Licensed Pilot (Single engine Land)
Boeing 727,737-200-300-400,757,767
Airbus A319,320,321
DC9/MD80
BAe146
Fokker F28/F100
VW type 1 1962,63,65,69,72
VW Type 2 1971 (3 ea.) 1978, 1969
VW Jetta
VW Passat
Capable of leaping tall buildings in a single bound |
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scrivyscriv Samba Electrician
Joined: October 04, 2011 Posts: 2918 Location: Memphis
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Posted: Mon May 21, 2018 4:25 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel Line Fuel hose - Quality, Makers, Sizes FAQ |
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aeromech wrote: |
You’re thinking AN but I used MS (swagelok) on my custom lines. Much easier and faster. You always need to have flex hoses too or you’ll stress the stainless. |
Wow, you went swagelock, that's some overkill!!!! MS is rated for what, 3k PSI?
I don't have any of the fittings or tooling but I definitely think MS is better than AN when using stainless. It's just too easy to make a bad stainless AN flare.
I have a roll of 1/4" ID stainless steel braid teflon tubing that I was going to use as the flex connection from the left side engine bay out to the engine. I know teflon takes a set but I think this application would be okay if it's not physically disturbed. Right now this is what I have:
_________________ Robert in Memphis
Dünkelgrügen 1967 Java Green bug thread
Engine rebuild thread
If you're ever in the Memphis area, you are welcome to stop by for advice and help. |
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21475 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Tue May 22, 2018 10:14 am Post subject: Re: Fuel Line Fuel hose - Quality, Makers, Sizes FAQ |
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scrivyscriv wrote: |
aeromech wrote: |
You’re thinking AN but I used MS (swagelok) on my custom lines. Much easier and faster. You always need to have flex hoses too or you’ll stress the stainless. |
Wow, you went swagelock, that's some overkill!!!! MS is rated for what, 3k PSI?
I don't have any of the fittings or tooling but I definitely think MS is better than AN when using stainless. It's just too easy to make a bad stainless AN flare.
I have a roll of 1/4" ID stainless steel braid teflon tubing that I was going to use as the flex connection from the left side engine bay out to the engine. I know teflon takes a set but I think this application would be okay if it's not physically disturbed. Right now this is what I have:
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MS (Swagelok)...or actually any of the stainless or carbon steel compression fitting systems are excellent for getting rid of rubber fuel hoses (except for as Aeromech noted a couple of flex joints).
Its not really about whether its overkill.....its not even really about pressure. As you note....whatever pressure you are using ...carbed or injected...or even some hydraulic.....its covered so how much over is irrelevant .
To me its not even about getting that "sano" look. Rubber fuel line versus fuel.... reliability...versus cost and having to replace every 4 years at best is becoming an issue....IMHO.
While AN is pretty....and with braided SS over rubber has "better" abrasion resistance"....I hate seeing it on a carbed car with 3 psi of pressure ...its still rubber under the braid and has a finite lifespan. But hey....to each their own. The AN with solid tube is much smarter and nicer!
Now replacing it all with steel or stainless steel...except for a few easily replaced expansion joints....thats a forever fuel line right there. Compression unions make a lot of sense and really keep the cost sane.
I am working on a Nylon/steel set up now....higher pressure than you will ever need...easy 25 year lifespan in any conditions. With the right nylon combo you do not even need flex joints. Cheap....easy to patch and replace on the fly.
Also....soon I will post a how to for installing it in our systems. Actually the connector technology is not an issue. You are not actually required to use ANY of the factory funky locking clip style connectors unless you want ot need to. Ray |
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ivwshane Samba Member
Joined: May 19, 2011 Posts: 1920 Location: Sacramento ca
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Posted: Sat Oct 27, 2018 9:25 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel Line Fuel hose - Quality, Makers, Sizes FAQ |
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Any consensus of the belmetric 7mm fi hose vs the gates 5/16" high pressure fi hose?
I see that people say that the gates doesn't let any vapors pass through, so no gas smell, what about the belmetric hose? _________________ 77 westy 2.0 FI
69 ghia coup 1600dp
70 single cab |
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Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50262
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Posted: Sat Oct 27, 2018 9:33 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel Line Fuel hose - Quality, Makers, Sizes FAQ |
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ivwshane wrote: |
Any consensus of the belmetric 7mm fi hose vs the gates 5/16" high pressure fi hose?
I see that people say that the gates doesn't let any vapors pass through, so no gas smell, what about the belmetric hose? |
The Gates meets the low permeability 30r14 spec ontop of the 30r9 spec, don't know about the other. |
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outcaststudios Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2015 Posts: 1728 Location: Maine
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Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 9:42 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel Line Fuel hose - Quality, Makers, Sizes FAQ |
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what about swagelock convoluted 316 braided stainless hose? can that be used for a flexible joint? Im glad i found this thread topic since im about to redo the fuel system in my bay. the alcohol is killing my fuel lines, ive had to redo them more in the last five years than in the last twenty. _________________ '88Doka JX td
'69 westy
(rip)couple bugs
(rip)three type III"s
(rip) '81 vanagon
a bunch of french stuff,and 9 motorcycles.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=2573791 |
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Thrasher22 Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2010 Posts: 858 Location: Calgary, Canada
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Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:42 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel Line Fuel hose - Quality, Makers, Sizes FAQ |
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For the longer run of hose between the fuel pump and injector rail, does anyone use protection sleeve to stop it from rubbing against the frame? On my 75 that's a 4.5' run that passes by several potential friction points.
And if I added a "sleeve" could it just be some larger, cheap vac or fuel line? _________________ 1975 Westfalia - http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=516701 |
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busdaddy Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2004 Posts: 51057 Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 3:35 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel Line Fuel hose - Quality, Makers, Sizes FAQ |
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Not a bad idea, some of the OG ones may have even had something on them, shiny and black IIRC. Clear vinyl tubing would be a good choice, not too thick and you might even see something bad happening inside (if that ever happened). _________________ Rust NEVER sleeps and stock never goes out of style.
Please don't PM technical questions, ask your problem in public so everyone can play along. If you think it's too stupid post it here
Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery!
Слава Україні! |
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THall Samba Member
Joined: August 25, 2010 Posts: 324 Location: Verona, WI
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Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 6:19 am Post subject: Re: Fuel Line Fuel hose - Quality, Makers, Sizes FAQ |
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Thrasher22 wrote: |
For the longer run of hose between the fuel pump and injector rail, does anyone use protection sleeve to stop it from rubbing against the frame? On my 75 that's a 4.5' run that passes by several potential friction points.
And if I added a "sleeve" could it just be some larger, cheap vac or fuel line? |
I have this on mine. Put it on the line between the regulator and the tank as well since I had enough.
http://www.busdepot.com/n0180154 _________________ '78 Westy - 2.0 FI |
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Thrasher22 Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2010 Posts: 858 Location: Calgary, Canada
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Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 7:53 am Post subject: Re: Fuel Line Fuel hose - Quality, Makers, Sizes FAQ |
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This shows how far aftermarket support has come since I parked my bus a few years ago, I wouldn't have imagined someone actually made this! Thanks _________________ 1975 Westfalia - http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=516701 |
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