Author |
Message |
madmike Samba Member
Joined: July 11, 2005 Posts: 5291 Location: Atlanta,Michigan
|
Posted: Tue May 15, 2018 3:49 am Post subject: Re: The 1641 for my Detroit money pit |
|
|
x2 on that torqueMEister (fikin spell check
Anyhow u gonna debut this Buggy at Yipsi? I driving the bus down and doing the swap meet stop by and say Hi ,Madmike _________________ 'Black Ice'Drag Buggy 'Turbo'
Rail Buggy 1915 turbo
76 Drag/Street bug 2180cc 'Turbo' 11:85 @113 mph"If I go any faster I'll burn up the Hamster" ,gets 28 mpg. also 10/09/22 11.90 @115 mph
"If I'm ever on Life Support,UNPLUG Me, Then Plug me back In see if that Works" |
|
Back to top |
|
|
dennismcd707 Samba Member
Joined: October 09, 2017 Posts: 513 Location: Burbs of Detroit
|
Posted: Tue May 15, 2018 6:49 am Post subject: Re: The 1641 for my Detroit money pit |
|
|
I have a torque master, or torque maistro.....or torque multiplier, whatever it's called. I guess I need to see how it's used exactly. I thought I still had to figure out a way for the engine to be secured, but I guess I've got an engine stand that will hold it still, (now that I've modified it) .....So, I reckon once I figure out how to use the torquing tool, I can fasten my flywheel once and for all. I'll look on youtube to see if I can find somebody using one. I really don't have a clue because I've never seen one used before, and I suck at figuring stuff out without directions. I'm a lousy engineer, what can I say? You guys have any tips on using one?
I might be going to Ypsilanti next weekend for the show, but I haven't 100 percent committed yet. I might fare better by staying home and finishing up my engine. And naturally, my buggy isn't even close to being ready yet. _________________ 1971 Super Beetle, 1776, dual Weber's, roller crank, big valve modified racing heads, close ratio trans, lowered suspension, 4 wheel disc brakes, car has over 368,000 actual miles. (RIP 1970 Beetle/Baja, 1986 GTI, 1999 Jetta, 2002 Jetta) |
|
Back to top |
|
|
dennismcd707 Samba Member
Joined: October 09, 2017 Posts: 513 Location: Burbs of Detroit
|
Posted: Tue May 15, 2018 7:56 am Post subject: Re: The 1641 for my Detroit money pit |
|
|
.....here's a photo of my torque multiplier. I still have no idea how to use this thing. What does the 25 lbs 30 lbs mean? (stamped on it) Plus, I have two gears and no directions. Any help is appreciated, youtube wasn't very beneficial. _________________ 1971 Super Beetle, 1776, dual Weber's, roller crank, big valve modified racing heads, close ratio trans, lowered suspension, 4 wheel disc brakes, car has over 368,000 actual miles. (RIP 1970 Beetle/Baja, 1986 GTI, 1999 Jetta, 2002 Jetta) |
|
Back to top |
|
|
[email protected] Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2002 Posts: 12785 Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
|
Posted: Tue May 15, 2018 8:10 am Post subject: Re: The 1641 for my Detroit money pit |
|
|
those are torque conversion #s. If you want 270 at the big end, use 30 at the small end. That is a 9:1 multiplier.
The 4 hole piece is for axle nuts. You don't use that for flywheels. You have a 6 and 12V small wheel to match with the flywheel you are using. _________________ It's just advice, do whatever you want with it!
Please do NOT send me Private Messages through the Samba PM System (I will not see them). Send me an e-mail to john at aircooled dot net
"Like" our Facebook page at
http://www.facebook.com/vwpartsaircoolednet
and get a 5% off code for use on one order for VW Parts ON OUR PARTS STORE WEBSITE, vwparts.aircooled.net |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Pruneman99 Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2012 Posts: 5013 Location: Oceanside
|
Posted: Tue May 15, 2018 8:43 am Post subject: Re: The 1641 for my Detroit money pit |
|
|
Put the tool on the gland nut, the gear that fits your flywheel through the arm and locked into the flywheel teeth. Use a torque wrench on the end of the gear sticking through the arm.
Hope that makes sense. You can torque a gland nut or rear axle nut down with two fingers. Oh and use a small torque wrench, your target torque value won't be any higher than 30lbs or so. Remember it multiplies the torque by 9X |
|
Back to top |
|
|
dennismcd707 Samba Member
Joined: October 09, 2017 Posts: 513 Location: Burbs of Detroit
|
Posted: Thu May 17, 2018 8:41 am Post subject: Re: The 1641 for my Detroit money pit |
|
|
Pretty cool device this torque multiplier. Thanks for filling in for the missing directions. Looks like I won't get my chance to use the new 250 ft. lb. torque wrench that I bought several months ago. At least, not right now, anyways.
Piston ring end gap: I took off 'ALL' the rings except for the oil ring (the bottom one) and put them down into the cylinder about 1/3 of the way down. I could just fit my .016 feeler gauge blade into the gaps, so it looks like I'm okay on the compression rings. I don't know how to remove the oil rings, but I'm pretty sure I don't need to know............
And I still don't know why it got so hard turning my engine over once I installed the pistons and cylinders the last time, but slowly and surely, I'm eliminating all possible causes. (unless of course the problem lies with the oil rings, and if that's the case, this could be a case of deja vu)
I also just got done cleaning the bottoms of all my cylinders. I had used Permatex Ultra Black gasket maker when I installed them the last time, so I had to clean off all the old dried gasket material. Time consuming, but they are all done, ready for installation. I think I'll try to tackle the installation of the P & C's tomorrow, and this time, I'm gonna use a bunch more oil to ease these babies in. Then it's the heads and pushrods next. _________________ 1971 Super Beetle, 1776, dual Weber's, roller crank, big valve modified racing heads, close ratio trans, lowered suspension, 4 wheel disc brakes, car has over 368,000 actual miles. (RIP 1970 Beetle/Baja, 1986 GTI, 1999 Jetta, 2002 Jetta) |
|
Back to top |
|
|
madmike Samba Member
Joined: July 11, 2005 Posts: 5291 Location: Atlanta,Michigan
|
Posted: Fri May 18, 2018 3:23 am Post subject: Re: The 1641 for my Detroit money pit |
|
|
DON'T use oil the rings will take forever to seat
Just use WD-40 _________________ 'Black Ice'Drag Buggy 'Turbo'
Rail Buggy 1915 turbo
76 Drag/Street bug 2180cc 'Turbo' 11:85 @113 mph"If I go any faster I'll burn up the Hamster" ,gets 28 mpg. also 10/09/22 11.90 @115 mph
"If I'm ever on Life Support,UNPLUG Me, Then Plug me back In see if that Works" |
|
Back to top |
|
|
dennismcd707 Samba Member
Joined: October 09, 2017 Posts: 513 Location: Burbs of Detroit
|
Posted: Fri May 18, 2018 6:23 am Post subject: Re: The 1641 for my Detroit money pit |
|
|
WD-40 on the rings instead of oil? Why? ....and why is this the first time I've ever heard about the rings taking a long time to seat themselves if I use oil? Hmmm, I'm not sure I'd want to use wd40. Sounds funky. _________________ 1971 Super Beetle, 1776, dual Weber's, roller crank, big valve modified racing heads, close ratio trans, lowered suspension, 4 wheel disc brakes, car has over 368,000 actual miles. (RIP 1970 Beetle/Baja, 1986 GTI, 1999 Jetta, 2002 Jetta) |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Teeroy Samba Member
Joined: April 20, 2003 Posts: 3682 Location: Eastern WA
|
Posted: Fri May 18, 2018 7:59 am Post subject: Re: The 1641 for my Detroit money pit |
|
|
I switched to WD 40 on rings a couple years ago, never a problem, lot less messy than oil too. _________________ Pres. Rivercity VW Club www.rcvwclub.org
Founder Derr Wheat Panzers (DWP)
ARR #3
www.autosportsnorthwest.org |
|
Back to top |
|
|
dennismcd707 Samba Member
Joined: October 09, 2017 Posts: 513 Location: Burbs of Detroit
|
Posted: Fri May 18, 2018 9:32 am Post subject: Re: The 1641 for my Detroit money pit |
|
|
I ended up searching old threads on the WD40 topic on piston rings, and have concluded that although WD40 may work fine, and be less messy, I'll stick with motor oil. To be more exact, I think I'll lube my cylinders and rings with a light coat of 2 stroke oil. (unless of course I'm talked out of it, but I think it's a pretty safe and sound....... and logical assembly process) I'll also use regular 10W30 wt. oil mixed with assembly lube on the wrist pins and bushings, and a thin coat of regular 10W30 wt. oil on the piston skirts.
I've also read where some guys lightly wet sand the new cylinders, to "KNOCK THE TOOTH OFF" of the hone job, but I'm not gonna go there. (unless of course I'm talked out of it....) They're new pistons and the jugs have been honed. Is there any reason I really need to 'CHANGE' the surface finish after honing? I don't think so. Just a good cleaning, then a light coat of 2 stroke oil on the cylinders to prevent rust and ease in the piston installation step. Should be golden, yes?
_________________ 1971 Super Beetle, 1776, dual Weber's, roller crank, big valve modified racing heads, close ratio trans, lowered suspension, 4 wheel disc brakes, car has over 368,000 actual miles. (RIP 1970 Beetle/Baja, 1986 GTI, 1999 Jetta, 2002 Jetta)
Last edited by dennismcd707 on Tue May 22, 2018 8:39 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
Back to top |
|
|
[email protected] Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2002 Posts: 12785 Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
|
Posted: Fri May 18, 2018 11:16 am Post subject: Re: The 1641 for my Detroit money pit |
|
|
new cylinders MUST BE CLEANED AND OILED PRIOR TO USE. The cylinder walls are embedded with honing stone. This will shorten ring life drastically if you do not remove it. _________________ It's just advice, do whatever you want with it!
Please do NOT send me Private Messages through the Samba PM System (I will not see them). Send me an e-mail to john at aircooled dot net
"Like" our Facebook page at
http://www.facebook.com/vwpartsaircoolednet
and get a 5% off code for use on one order for VW Parts ON OUR PARTS STORE WEBSITE, vwparts.aircooled.net |
|
Back to top |
|
|
dennismcd707 Samba Member
Joined: October 09, 2017 Posts: 513 Location: Burbs of Detroit
|
Posted: Sat May 19, 2018 9:40 am Post subject: Re: The 1641 for my Detroit money pit |
|
|
More bad news. (or.....another hoop to jump through) I stripped the threads in my crank tightening my gland nut bolt. I was using the torque multiplier tool, and it was getting tight, then it wasn't. What the hell man, did I do something stupid? If I did, somebody tell me. I wanted to torque the flywheel bolt (gland nut) to 400 lbs, which would be 44 foot pounds on my torque wrench. Well, either I never got there, or I did.......and then some. I mean, the torque wrench never 'CLICKED', and it seems to work fine everywhere else.
I've never used this tool before (torque multiplier), so it's making me feel like I did something wrong. Could I have overtightened it somehow? It sure as hell never felt like it. I mean, this is a brand new crank and a brand new flywheel. I even had to ream out the flywheel holes a bit so it would mate with the crank.
So I think if I can't clean up the crank threads (which I don't think I can....safely) I'm pretty much screwed. Time for a new crank. Any suggestions?
_________________ 1971 Super Beetle, 1776, dual Weber's, roller crank, big valve modified racing heads, close ratio trans, lowered suspension, 4 wheel disc brakes, car has over 368,000 actual miles. (RIP 1970 Beetle/Baja, 1986 GTI, 1999 Jetta, 2002 Jetta) |
|
Back to top |
|
|
dennismcd707 Samba Member
Joined: October 09, 2017 Posts: 513 Location: Burbs of Detroit
|
Posted: Sun May 20, 2018 7:08 am Post subject: Re: The 1641 for my Detroit money pit |
|
|
I guess I'll be throwing the crank away, and starting over again. I'll get it right. Expensive and time consuming lessons....plural _________________ 1971 Super Beetle, 1776, dual Weber's, roller crank, big valve modified racing heads, close ratio trans, lowered suspension, 4 wheel disc brakes, car has over 368,000 actual miles. (RIP 1970 Beetle/Baja, 1986 GTI, 1999 Jetta, 2002 Jetta) |
|
Back to top |
|
|
nshaddox Samba Member
Joined: January 18, 2005 Posts: 612 Location: Hammatramma, MI
|
Posted: Sun May 20, 2018 8:05 am Post subject: Re: The 1641 for my Detroit money pit |
|
|
Looks like only the last four threads pulled. Maybe you could find a longer gland but to get deeper engagement? What crank was it? Stock or empi crap? |
|
Back to top |
|
|
dennismcd707 Samba Member
Joined: October 09, 2017 Posts: 513 Location: Burbs of Detroit
|
Posted: Sun May 20, 2018 10:30 am Post subject: Re: The 1641 for my Detroit money pit |
|
|
It was a cast Scat "Volksaver" crank, just under 200 bucks, and I honestly think it's a piece of crap. I'm gonna order another crank, this time I'll throw my money at a forged one. Meanwhile, I've got the other engine to assemble, and as long as I don't lose any, I have all the parts.
I'd try to repair it, and use a longer bolt ..... but I feel this area is too important to be screwing around with. A new crank is in order, and since I've had real bad luck with Empi and Scat brands, I thought I'd try one from CB Performance. A forged, counter weighted 69mm chromoly crank for around 200 bucks, plus shipping. Lot of moola, but what am I going to do? Just eat it, I guess. _________________ 1971 Super Beetle, 1776, dual Weber's, roller crank, big valve modified racing heads, close ratio trans, lowered suspension, 4 wheel disc brakes, car has over 368,000 actual miles. (RIP 1970 Beetle/Baja, 1986 GTI, 1999 Jetta, 2002 Jetta) |
|
Back to top |
|
|
madmike Samba Member
Joined: July 11, 2005 Posts: 5291 Location: Atlanta,Michigan
|
Posted: Mon May 21, 2018 3:27 am Post subject: Re: The 1641 for my Detroit money pit |
|
|
I kept telling a buddy up here about his J.C Whitney cw crank= (junk)
now it's a 'Two piece crank'
nothing wrong with a good 'welded crank' =German _________________ 'Black Ice'Drag Buggy 'Turbo'
Rail Buggy 1915 turbo
76 Drag/Street bug 2180cc 'Turbo' 11:85 @113 mph"If I go any faster I'll burn up the Hamster" ,gets 28 mpg. also 10/09/22 11.90 @115 mph
"If I'm ever on Life Support,UNPLUG Me, Then Plug me back In see if that Works" |
|
Back to top |
|
|
nshaddox Samba Member
Joined: January 18, 2005 Posts: 612 Location: Hammatramma, MI
|
Posted: Mon May 21, 2018 7:29 am Post subject: Re: The 1641 for my Detroit money pit |
|
|
send scat the pic of the pulled threads and see if they want it back to do any diagnosis on? I used a CB 76mm forged crank in the past and had no issues. stock forged german would probably be fine for you too. its just a 1641 after all. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
heywebonya Samba Member
Joined: July 08, 2010 Posts: 823 Location: Portage, MI
|
Posted: Mon May 21, 2018 7:45 am Post subject: Re: The 1641 for my Detroit money pit |
|
|
Is the flywheel flange thicker than standard? The dowels look shorter than normal.
This would result in less threads to engage and therefore failure; although you did use "enraged gorilla" forces at 400 ft/lbs.
-Jeff _________________ If I knew what I was doing; I wouldn't be building a buggy! |
|
Back to top |
|
|
dennismcd707 Samba Member
Joined: October 09, 2017 Posts: 513 Location: Burbs of Detroit
|
Posted: Tue May 22, 2018 9:01 am Post subject: Re: The 1641 for my Detroit money pit |
|
|
I was wearing Gorilla Grip gloves when I chose to torque to 400 lbs. Maybe there's a correlation there.
Not sure about the flywheel flange or the dowels looking shorter than usual. I only know that it never was a perfect slide fit. The dowels always had to be forced into the holes, and drawn in with the gland nut bolt. (not very precision oriented, this aftermarket stuff)
As far as torquing to 400 foot pounds again, I might be persuaded to drop that number a bit for my next crank/flywheel mating session, but it also should be able to handle it next time. Yes? No?
And I'm sure Scat isn't gonna want to look at my crank. In a perfect world maybe, but why would they take the time? Time is money, and to make money, everybody seems to cut corners. Save time, save money, and put a disclaimer on everything. (You torqued it too tight, Mr. McD.) Don't want to sound like a Gloomy Gus, but ........ quality products in the VW aftermarket world sure seem hard to come by. (and another reason why TheSamba is so important to a lot of us rookies) _________________ 1971 Super Beetle, 1776, dual Weber's, roller crank, big valve modified racing heads, close ratio trans, lowered suspension, 4 wheel disc brakes, car has over 368,000 actual miles. (RIP 1970 Beetle/Baja, 1986 GTI, 1999 Jetta, 2002 Jetta) |
|
Back to top |
|
|
vwracerdave Samba Member
Joined: November 11, 2004 Posts: 15280 Location: Deep in the 405
|
Posted: Tue May 22, 2018 9:45 am Post subject: Re: The 1641 for my Detroit money pit |
|
|
The factory torque spec for the gland nut is 253 Ft/Lb and that is with a forged crank. There is no reason to use 400 Ft/Lb. Where do you get the ideal you must tighten the gland nut to 400 Ft/Lb. On your next crank I would suggest you follow the factory torque spec. _________________ 2017 Street Comp Champion - Thunder Valley Raceway Park - Noble, OK
2010 Sportsman ET Champion - Mid-America Dragway - Arkansas City, KS
1997 Sportsman ET Champion - Thunder Valley Raceway Park - Noble ,OK
Featured in Dec. 2001 HOT VW's Magazine page 63
Watch my racing video's http://www.youtube.com/user/okvwracer/videos |
|
Back to top |
|
|
|