After DMV meetings, Texas dune buggy owners turn to lawmakers

[Over9K]

From Hemmings Motor News...

[stooge57]

Their Facebook page:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/SavetheTexasDuneBuggy

Join up and support - this could be coming to your state!

[oprn]

In too many of these types of regulations it has nothing to do with facts or real statistics and everything to do with "seeing to be doing something" on an issue to do with a perceived public good.

Or in plain language - looking good for the next election.

[AMAC1680]

This can spread if they get away with it.
What the discussion has done is bring our dirty little secret to light.

I’d bet there are more buggys registered as beetles than special construction etc on the road based on comments posted. That’s not a good thing for the powers that be to hear.

Even if Texas changes course it will be interesting to see how many of the beetle registered cars make it past inspection.

AMAC
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[HeidelbergJohn4.0]

If registered as a street rod or Historic, they never see the light of day in an inspection station here thank god.
_________________
71 LWB Manx style dunebuggy
71 Beetle
71 Volksrod
Machette Speedster
2012 Passat TDI SE (sadly sitting in a buyback parking lot somewhere waiting for it's heart to be ripped out.)

[Wetstuff]

Ya, HJ ...when I walked into my MD DMV to transfer an Ohio title to Md ..I simultaneously pulled the trigger of a 357 pointed at my foot while saying; 'Dune Buggy'. F'-me!

My workaround was to join the AAA (arg, I hated doing that) and title thru them. Even a call to the head office would not turn that ship.

Jim
_________________
Manx #2614

[EVfun]

[didget69]

[MrGoodtunes]

Whether it is Administrative Rule 217.3 (6) or whatever Texas law it is that rules out Dune Buggies, to me it sounds UNconstitutional. I mean it goes totally against "the pursuit of happiness."

[vwracerdave]

Driving is a privilege not a constitutional right. They can legislate any rule they want.
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1997 Sportsman ET Champion - Thunder Valley Raceway Park - Noble ,OK
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[BuggyFaron]

Thank you for posting the Hemmings Article Over9k much appreciated.

Thank you posting the Facebook page we are using to keep everyone up to date. Stooge57
https://www.facebook.com/groups/SavetheTexasDuneBuggy


oprn wrote:
In too many of these types of regulations it has nothing to do with facts or real statistics and everything to do with "seeing to be doing something" on an issue to do with a perceived public good.

Or in plain language - looking good for the next election.


The TxDMV has been asked multiple times to produce actual Statistics one the accident reports concerning Dune Buggies, Sandrail, & Kitcars. But we have never seen them.... we can only assume they don’t have them. Sure there have been an accident or two, but it pales in comparison to other vehicles on the road.
The next election is not going to help, as no one that we have dealt with are elected officials. That is up until here recently, as we are really working with State Legislators as well other Political activist groups.


AMAC1680 wrote:
This can spread if they get away with it.
What the discussion has done is bring our dirty little secret to light.

I’d bet there are more buggys registered as beetles than special construction etc on the road based on comments posted. That’s not a good thing for the powers that be to hear.

Even if Texas changes course it will be interesting to see how many of the beetle registered cars make it past inspection.

AMAC


You are correct we do need to put a stop to this as it can spread if we allow it. In the last meeting I asked how a Dune Buggy with a shortened pan is different than a vehicle that that has a C-Notched chassis. Kuntz the Director of TxDMV Title & Registration Division said that those vehicles are against the law as well. He continued with if I gave the name of the owners they would be sent a Letter revoking their Title/Registration. I then laughed and said NOPE! (I’m not there to drop anyone in the grease.)
The TxDMV knows about people illegally titling Dune Buggies as a VW Beetle. That is part of the reason that they can’t give us exact number on how may Dune Buggies, Sandrails, & Kitcars are on the road here in Texas.


Wetstuff wrote:
Ya, HJ ...when I walked into my MD DMV to transfer an Ohio title to Md ..I simultaneously pulled the trigger of a 357 pointed at my foot while saying; 'Dune Buggy'. F'-me!

My workaround was to join the AAA (arg, I hated doing that) and title thru them. Even a call to the head office would not turn that ship.

Jim


Circumventing the issue is a very viable option for sure. We could do the same here, but we want to fix things to so that we don’t have to. In fact we mentioned it to the TxDMV. We asked if they would rather us give out Tax dollars to another state or Texas. They tried to say that what we were talking about was illegal, but we KNOW there are in fact ways around it.


EVfun wrote:
AMAC1680 wrote:
This can spread if they get away with it.
What the discussion has done is bring our dirty little secret to light.

I’d bet there are more buggys registered as beetles than special construction etc on the road based on comments posted. That’s not a good thing for the powers that be to hear.

Even if Texas changes course it will be interesting to see how many of the beetle registered cars make it past inspection.

AMAC

Every state has its own laws. In some states that may be correct. I believe it is in Washington for beach buggies built under the old "Type 1 and Type 2 Special Motor Vehicle" rules.

Did Texas have prior rules for kit cars and street rods, and what did they require? Perhaps some older buggies are correctly titled as Bugs.


Texas did have a way to legally Title/Register a Dune Buggy; we went through an inspection with an ASE Certified Technician & a Form VTR-64. That is until the department decided to arbitrarily enact Administrative Rule 217.3. Giving the TxDMV almost an open ticket to refuse Title/Registration to anything.


MrGoodtunes wrote:
Whether it is Administrative Rule 217.3 (6) or whatever Texas law it is that rules out Dune Buggies, to me it sounds UNconstitutional. I mean it goes totally against "the pursuit of happiness."


While I will agree with you, this does go against the pursuit of happiness; I think we are getting off in the weeds going this far at this point.


vwracerdave wrote:
Driving is a privilege not a constitutional right. They can legislate any rule they want.


You are 100% correct; driving is a privilege & not a right. But it is my constitutional Right to fight for what I believe in. I assure you, there is an Army who is willing to FIGHT for our right to legally Title/Register a Dune Buggy, Sandrail, or Kitcar here in Texas.

[EVfun]

[BuggyFaron]

This is a Q&A that we wrote up so that it will bring people up to speed.

SAVE THE TEXAS DUNE BUGGY
SANDRAIL & KITCAR
1. Is it true that Dune Buggys have been banned in Texas?
The short answer is YES. Under the Texas Administrative Code dated April of 2013, Section 217.3 (6)(B), any vehicle determined by the Texas Department of Motor Vehicles, (TDMV) to be a Dune Buggy, cannot be Titled or Registered in the Sate.
2. Is this a Texas Law?
Technically, No. It is an Administrative Rule which the Department has the right to impose and enforce by authority of the Texas Transportation Act of 2013. That Act gives them the right to write rules which carry the weight of Laws. Our position is that: If the TDMV has the authority to write Rules, they have the authority to amend and nullify rules. To date, they have refused to do that.
3. If the Rule was enacted in 2013, why are we just now hearing about it?
For several years the TDMV did not enforce the Rule. For what reason, we do not know. However, in 2017, some Buggy owners began receiving Surrender Demand Letters. In our first meeting with the TDMV, they agreed to cease sending the letters until a study could be made. In our second meeting with them, they told us that Rule 217.3 will stand, but they did not say if the Letters would resume.
4. How does the TDMV define a Dune Buggy?
Really and truly they don’t have a true definition. In the Assembled Vehicle Booklet, they depict a drawing of a vehicle that resembles a VW Beetle with the body removed. But nothing that looks like a Meyers Manx, Manx Clone, Sandrail, or much else for that matter. The rule goes further to say that any other vehicles that the Department “considers” to be a dune buggy is banned. In other words they can refuse Title/Registration to anything that the department “considers” looks to be a Dune Buggy.
5. Are any other Assembled Vehicles affected by this Rule?
Yes, and it gets a little vague and complicated here. Some Kit Cars are banned and some are not. IF the vehicle substantially resembles a vehicle that was legally mass-produced, then it can be Titled and Registered. An example of this would be a replica of a Shelby Cobra by Factory 5 Racing. However, a kit car such as a Valkerie, although it resembles a Ford GT40 race car, probably would not be titled because that car was never mass produced.
6. For what reason(s) has the TDMV decided to ban Dune Buggies, Sandails, and some Kit Cars?
This is a subject on which they have been Very Vague. Initially they said that their decision was based on Safety, although they have refused to define “Safe” or to provide any statistics to back up their position. Our contention is that Dune Buggiess are no less safe than other Assembled vehicles such as shop-built Motorcycles, Rat Rods, T-Buckets, Three wheelers, Autocars, C-Notched Chassis Vehicles etc.; All of which ARE Legal. However, more recently, they have cited the fact that dune buggies do not meet Federal Safety Standards. This puzzles us because NO assembled vehicle does.
7. Who is responsible for starting this mess?
Another tough question, that we have asked the TxDMV many times. No one has stood up to take credit or responsibility for starting this issue. Truth be told we are a year into this project and have got this far without knowing who started this mess, so it really does not matter at this point.
8. If Some Kit Cars are Legal because they Resemble mass-produced vehicles, what happens to the argument of Safety and compliance with Federal Safety Standards?
Good Question, and one for which we cannot get an answer. To us, this is one of the absurdities of Rule 217.3
9. Why can’t I just Register and Title my Buggy as a Volkswagen Beetle since I have a legitimate VW Title?
Technically you can. However, you have now illegally registered your Buggy by not declaring it to be an Assembled Vehicle. It could be considered Falsifying a Legal Document. Many Local, County and State Police Departments are aware of the Ban and can either stop and cite you, or even impound your Buggy; either way, you are now required to surrender your Registration and License Plates. In addition, a police officer may simply record your plate number, turn it into the State, and you will receive a Surrender Demand.
10. Can I drive my Buggy in Texas if it is legally registered in another State? Yes you can, as long as you do not live in Texas.
11. What if I move to Texas and bring with me my legally registered buggy from another state, and then drive it with the out-of-state plates on it?
Texas law requires that after moving to the state, you must obtain a Texas Drivers License and re-register your vehicles within thirty days. At that time, you will be denied title and registration to your Buggy.
12. Is anything being done to change the code?
YES, Absolutely! Many things are being done! A Core Group of the Texas Dune Buggy Owners, headed by Faron Smith is hard at work to change Rule 217.3, and already Much Progress has been made. Having received little or no cooperation from the TxDMV itself for a change in the rule, we have turned to the Texas State Legislature for assistance. We already have many State Representatives, including some on the State Transportation Committee, who are sympathetic to our cause and have expressed a desire to change the rule by law.
We have begun a letter-writing campaign to our State Representatives making them aware of the situation and asking for their support. Some of them have indicated that they are willing to initiate a Bill in Congress to rectify the issue. However, Congress does not reconvene until early 2019, and we all know that Legislation can be slow. So we wait on that effort of our campaign
We have hired a professional lobbyist who is meeting with many other Representatives to bring them onboard and he is representing us before the TxDMV. We have been Very Pleased with his Progress in those endeavors.
Knowing that there is Strength in Numbers, we have reached out to many national auto-related associations, magazines, news papers, major parts houses, etc to get our Message out there. We have experienced Great Response in this endeavor.

[73SlowBug]

I don't have a buggy (just a bug), but I've beem followimg this closely, as I'm originally from Texas (and so is my beetle). I hope this gets enough traction to be changed. Good luck to everyone.

[Lo Cash John]

Is your group accepting donations to fight this fight?

Funny question coming from Lo Cash John, right???
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[BuggyFaron]

Thank you for following along 73SlowBug. I assume that you have been doing so on our Facebook Page? https://www.facebook.com/groups/SavetheTexasDuneBuggy/

Just in case, we also have a website up and running at www.savethetexasdunebuggy.com

[Lo Cash John]

Just did my little bit.
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www.LoCashRacing.org
More brains than bucks...Believe it or not!!

If you actually drive your VW, you need www.AirMapp.com

My boss told me I need to work on my mutli-tasking. So now when I use the bathroom at work I surf The Samba on my iPhone.

[BuggyFaron]

This is going to be another long, informative post, but it will give a clearer picture of what we have planned for the future. First, let me tell you that we are now working on "Government Time" so it is doubtful that speed will take place anywhere during the next phase that we started. So please be patient, as more is going on than it seems. Unfortunately, we are going to feel like we are watching Grass grow for a while. In other words, I am asking for your patience please.

Our Lobbyist, Justin, and myself are scheduled to attend the May 23rd Sunset Commission Meeting to talk about the problems with Administrative Rule 217.3. In addition they have been keeping a VERY close eye on what has been happening during the "Working Group Meetings" with the TxDMV. In fact the members who we are in contact with are upset with how things were handled by the TxDMV this far. It is VERY important that the Sunset Commission is kept up to date, as the Texas Department of Motor Vehicles; Title & Registrations Division is under review with them right now. Just in case you don't know what the Sunset Commission is... The Sunset Advisory Commission is an agency of the Texas Legislature that makes recommendations to the Legislature on whether or not to continue various state agencies.

The Texas State Governor Greg Abbotts Chief of Staff is in close contact with our Lobbyist, and Governor Abbott is kept up to date frequently. When the Chief of Staff was first summarized, he was surprised at the rogue nature the TxDMV took on passing Administrative Rule 217.3. When the Lobbyist told him how the last "Working Group Meeting" was handled, he was upset at the way the TxDMV managed & even more upset that the TxDMV never called to brief him after the meeting.

The Texas Senators that are choosing to work with us. You can contact them at, look them up at www.senate.texas.gov if you send them an email give them the information you want them to know, but please know that if you get long winded. You will lose their attention, and nothing will be gained.
Senator Joe Pickett, District 79
Senator-elect Pat Fallon, District 106
Senator Brian Birdwell, District 22
Senator Kirk Watson, District 14
Senator Dawn Buckingham, District 24
Senator Kelly Hancock, District 9
Senator Robert Nichols, District 3
Senator Larry Taylor, District 11

The Texas State Representatives that are choosing to work with us. You can look them up at www.house.state.tx.us if you do send them an email give them the information you want them to know. But please know that if you get long winded, you will lose their attention & nothing will be gained.
State Rep Ed Thompson, District 29
State Rep Chris Peddie, District 9
State Rep Johnathan Strickland, District 92
State Rep Dan Flynn District 2
State Rep Stan Lambert, District 71
State Rep DeWayne Burns, District 58
State Rep John Wray, District 10
State Rep Craig Goldman, District 97
State Rep Matt Schaefer, District 6
State Rep Poncho Nevarez, District 74

The Lobbyist and Faron are working on a Press conference that will be held on the South Side of the Capitol Building. Nothing is set in stone; we will let you know as things develop.

Faron is in the planning process of organizing a gathering of Dune Buggies, Sandrails, & Kitcars to be held somewhere in the Austin area for sometime later this year. The purpose of doing so will have a long list in the near future. This is just a tad bit of information, because we are still in the planning stages to be honest. We will let you know as things progress!

What we need from you! As many of you know the Lobbyist has done a lot for us on our journey, and plans to do even more. But he does not work for free! So please make donations, buy the cool stuff we offer up for sale from time to time. Please take the time to print up a copy of the poster that is provided on the Facebook Page, and ask to put it up anywhere and everywhere you know an Automotive Hobbyist will hang out. We are in the process of getting things in line to offer up as Auction items, so please bid on items that you feel is worth your hard earned money. Again this is just around the corner. The last thing that we ask that you do is to talk about this with everyone, we have said it before & we will say it again. There is strength in numbers! Please direct your friends to the following websites!!!

www.savethetexasdunebuggy.com
https://www.facebook.com/groups/SavetheTexasDuneBuggy/
https://www.gofundme.com/SavetheTexasDuneBuggy

[BuggyFaron]

Faron, from Save the Texas Dune Buggy, Sandrail, & Kitcar project. Just wanted to offer an update after the Sunset Commission Meeting we attended yesterday.
Over all, I would say that today was a great success! A great success in that we were able to see that Legislators are visibly confused as to why the TxDMV passed an Administrative Rule that keeps so many of our Dune Buggies, Sandrails, & Kitcars off the road. We now have even more Legislators on our side! It was interesting to see Legislators ask questions about Save the Texas Dune Buggy before we got to the open forum to speak. That means that Ron, our Lobbyist has been able to get them to see just how ridicules this issue is, as well as tells us that our letters are in fact making an impact that we need to push forward with.
I think that one of the most interesting things I witnessed during todays Sunset Commission Meeting, was watching the TxDMV on Defense after seeing them act so smug for so long.
Lonny Doyle who owns DF Kitcar spoke about how he lives here in Texas and is losing multiple sales because of Administrative Rule 217.3. Although they are able to sell kits anywhere in the US, they are in Texas and cannot sell to people in their home state, heck they can’t even let them take a test drive. This helps the TxDMV see that this has a larger economic impact than what can be seen on the surface. Justin spoke about how he had the DF Kitcar he built Titled/Registered for 33 months when he got his letter to revoke. When I spoke I talked about how people from all over the nation, as well as other hobbyist groups were keeping a close eye on how this all plays out, as we all fear that this is just the beginning. I also spoke to the fact that our Member Caleb was at a carshow in Colorado and overheard a guy talking about how he had just picked up a Buggy that someone sold in Texas for next to nothing. I mentioned that when I moved back to Texas from New Mexico my Buggy was Titled/Registered, and that all changed when I tried to get my Buggy Title/Registered in Texas. You could see the concern and disgust on all their faces; I look forward to hearing where things go from here with regards to the TxDMV and the Sunset Commission.
I am not sure when but the State will post up a recording of todays meeting at https://www.sunset.texas.gov/meetings
no After we spoke our Lobbyist Ron had set up a meeting between Governor Abbotts Policy Advisor, Justin, Ron, DF Kitcar Owners Lonny & Adam, and me. He mentioned that there had been an influx of new Letters that had started to roll in this week, and that he is the guy tasked with reading them all. He then looked at me and said that he can’t help but think that was by design. I smiled and said that he should expect more! SO DO YOURSELVES AS WELL AS EVERYOTHER DUNE BUGGY, SANDRAIL, & KITCAR OWNER A FAVOR AND KEEP WRITING THOSE LETTERS! They are working! He said that he felt the Rule was out of line & that he was on our side! He feels that we will get this turned around; he just had no definitive answer as to how long it will take.
Okay time for me to bring this to an end… FINALLY! I am REALLY going to start pushing for two things! 1. We all need to write more Letters, I will post to the details as we go along. I watched it FIRST HAND in todays meeting that our Letter writing DOES IN FACT HAVE A LARGE IMPACT! 2. We really need to work on the Donations, as Ron (Our Lobbyist) has done some amazing things for us. But that does come at a price; he needs to eat as well. As soon as I can pull it all together I am going to post and expenditure report so everyone can see where their donations are being spent. Last, but not least Thank you for staying involved with all of this. I know we have been working on it for a long time, but I assure you there is light at the end of the tunnel now!

[cbeck]

Thanks for updating here, I don't do fb. Owner of a Missouri 2014 spec dune. Just moved all my vehicles to progressive because Geico would no longer do the buggy. Might be the next battle?
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