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cupowater35
Samba Member
Joined: February 21, 2018
Posts: 28
Location: West Michigan
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 Posted: Thu May 24, 2018 2:03 am Post subject: Morning running problems |
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Need some help! I have a 73 Super with a 1600, 34 pict 3, single advance distributor.
On my morning drive to work only about 55 degrees, and its fine for the rest of the day, car starts and runs fine for about 3 minutes. Then, when I hit the throttle, it sputters and wants to die, I can usually feather it and let the revs climb in able to drive, but its become a big problem every time I have to stop. Does this for the entire 25 minute drive to work. Takes about 1 minute to start going again, once I get it into higher revs, its fine. Later in the day around 70 degrees or higher, it starts and runs perfect.
My stupid question is, what can I do to counter the cold air? Does the cold air cause problems like this? Or am I trying to track down the wrong symptoms?
On a side note, it also takes about 10 minutes for my headlights to start working? Do the relays really go bad like that? Is that potentially due to the cold air as well? |
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Frodge
Samba Member
Joined: October 04, 2006
Posts: 1991
Location: Dump
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| Posted: Thu May 24, 2018 2:55 am Post subject: Re: Morning running problems |
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| Maybe your choke needs to be adjusted. |
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sawed off
Samba Member
Joined: September 15, 2016
Posts: 428
Location: Idaho
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| Posted: Thu May 24, 2018 5:43 am Post subject: Re: Morning running problems |
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| Possible plugged heat riser tube. They do plug with carbon. |
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AlmostHeavenWV_VW 
Samba Member
Joined: October 12, 2017
Posts: 1966
Location: WV
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| Posted: Thu May 24, 2018 5:58 am Post subject: Re: Morning running problems |
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| cupowater35 wrote: |
| Need some help! I have a 73 Super with a 1600, 34 pict 3, single advance distributor. |
1) First is your carb a Solex,Bocar, or other brand?
2) By "single advance" do you mean an SVDA (one that has both centrifugal advance AND a vaccum advance) or do you mean an SVA (single vaccum only advance)
Best way to clear that up is to always put the distributor part number in your post or have it your signature of your profile (so that everytime you post important info such as engine, year, super/standard, carb type, distributor type and # is always there in case you forget to mention something)
If you have an SVA, that's not the right distriubtor for a 34pict-3- totally wrong vaccumm signal for 34pict3.
Also we need to establish which 34pict3 you have- they came set up for both SVDA distributors and DVDA distributors. Find the carb flange # (located on bottom left rear part of the carb)
Looks like this:
Thread with the flange and distributor numbers:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=185095
Thread which speaks specifically to the DVDA and SVDA differences
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=365762&highlight=rivet
Take that flange number and look up the original distributor # to find out if it is SVDA or DVDA set up carb.
| cupowater35 wrote: |
My stupid question is, what can I do to counter the cold air? Does the cold air cause problems like this? Or am I trying to track down the wrong symptoms? |
First question- Do you have a 'shiny chrome' air cleaner or the OEM VW plastic cleaner
pic of OG cleaner which is correct for 1973 VWs
(from Zundfoldge gallery)
Why I ask this: note the hose second from the right- it's a pre-heat air hose which pulls warmed air from off the exhaust which helps with cold/cool start driveability until the engine gets up to operating temperature.
Now, note the metal clip looking thing in the middle of the airbox, has two small hoses connected to it (one from metal up to right side of airbox, one from metal down to the vaccumm port on the intake manifold.
The metal part is a thermostat which controls the vaccum to the right side of the airbox(which in turn can open a flap inside the airbox snout to pull warm air from underneath through the preheat hose, then when proper engine temps are attained, the thermostat closes the vaccum off to the snout port and then the air is drawn in from the end of the airbox snout.
This preheat thermostat and system is essential for good cool/cold driveability.
| cupowater35 wrote: |
On a side note, it also takes about 10 minutes for my headlights to start working? Do the relays really go bad like that? Is that potentially due to the cold air as well? |
It would be unlikely that cold air would do that. First guess is a bad ground. Second guess, headlight switch issues (could be corroded connections there too) third guess, the whole electrical system is under voltage (possible bad grounds, bad battery, bad generator, bad voltage regulator, corroded connections, etc etc)
Post up this info and everyone can chime in and help you figure this out
_________________
1973 Standard Beetle
1600DP AK case
Solex 34PICT3 Carb
Bosch DVDA 205AJ Distributor |
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Cusser
Samba Member
Joined: October 02, 2006
Posts: 31379
Location: Hot Arizona
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| Posted: Thu May 24, 2018 6:35 am Post subject: Re: Morning running problems |
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| cupowater35 wrote: |
| On a side note, it also takes about 10 minutes for my headlights to start working? Do the relays really go bad like that? Is that potentially due to the cold air as well? |
This is really interesting, have never heard of anything like this before. The relay is for switching from low beams to high beams, should not be involved.
I'd start by cleaning up the four fuses/fuse connectors for the headlights (disconnect battery cable first). And clean/tighten connections at the dimmer relay.
Second: I'd like to know the voltage across the battery terminals 30 seconds after you start the VW, at about 2000 rpm.
_________________
1970 VW (owned since 1972) and 1971 VW Convertible (owned since 1976), second owner of each. The '71 now has the 1835 engine, swapped from the '70. Second owner of each. 1988 Mazda B2200 truck, 1998 Frontier, 2014 Yukon, 2004 Frontier King Cab. All manual transmission except for the Yukon. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335294 http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335297 |
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cupowater35
Samba Member
Joined: February 21, 2018
Posts: 28
Location: West Michigan
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| Posted: Thu May 24, 2018 6:50 am Post subject: Re: Morning running problems |
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| AlmostHeavenWV_VW wrote: |
| cupowater35 wrote: |
| Need some help! I have a 73 Super with a 1600, 34 pict 3, single advance distributor. |
1) First is your carb a Solex,Bocar, or other brand?
2) By "single advance" do you mean an SVDA (one that has both centrifugal advance AND a vaccum advance) or do you mean an SVA (single vaccum only advance)
Best way to clear that up is to always put the distributor part number in your post or have it your signature of your profile (so that everytime you post important info such as engine, year, super/standard, carb type, distributor type and # is always there in case you forget to mention something)
If you have an SVA, that's not the right distriubtor for a 34pict-3- totally wrong vaccumm signal for 34pict3.
Also we need to establish which 34pict3 you have- they came set up for both SVDA distributors and DVDA distributors. Find the carb flange # (located on bottom left rear part of the carb)
Looks like this:
Thread with the flange and distributor numbers:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=185095
Thread which speaks specifically to the DVDA and SVDA differences
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=365762&highlight=rivet
Take that flange number and look up the original distributor # to find out if it is SVDA or DVDA set up carb.
| cupowater35 wrote: |
My stupid question is, what can I do to counter the cold air? Does the cold air cause problems like this? Or am I trying to track down the wrong symptoms? |
First question- Do you have a 'shiny chrome' air cleaner or the OEM VW plastic cleaner
pic of OG cleaner which is correct for 1973 VWs
(from Zundfoldge gallery)
Why I ask this: note the hose second from the right- it's a pre-heat air hose which pulls warmed air from off the exhaust which helps with cold/cool start driveability until the engine gets up to operating temperature.
Now, note the metal clip looking thing in the middle of the airbox, has two small hoses connected to it (one from metal up to right side of airbox, one from metal down to the vaccumm port on the intake manifold.
The metal part is a thermostat which controls the vaccum to the right side of the airbox(which in turn can open a flap inside the airbox snout to pull warm air from underneath through the preheat hose, then when proper engine temps are attained, the thermostat closes the vaccum off to the snout port and then the air is drawn in from the end of the airbox snout.
This preheat thermostat and system is essential for good cool/cold driveability.
Post up this info and everyone can chime in and help you figure this out |
1. Bocar currently, I have an EMPI to put on it. Hoping it might be a choke issue or the fact that the fuel shut off is broken. I did try and set the choke according to the "idiots guide"
2. SVDA, currently not in the picture but was replaced earlier this month. Had a problem with the DVDA and could not find a direct replacement without going to a SVDA.
3. Stock air filter, I want to keep this car as stock as possible. No hose on the left, as long as I've owned it its never had one there. |
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cupowater35
Samba Member
Joined: February 21, 2018
Posts: 28
Location: West Michigan
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| Posted: Thu May 24, 2018 6:53 am Post subject: Re: Morning running problems |
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| Cusser wrote: |
| cupowater35 wrote: |
| On a side note, it also takes about 10 minutes for my headlights to start working? Do the relays really go bad like that? Is that potentially due to the cold air as well? |
This is really interesting, have never heard of anything like this before. The relay is for switching from low beams to high beams, should not be involved.
I'd start by cleaning up the four fuses/fuse connectors for the headlights (disconnect battery cable first). And clean/tighten connections at the dimmer relay.
Second: I'd like to know the voltage across the battery terminals 30 seconds after you start the VW, at about 2000 rpm. |
Fuses all look clean, fit well, and I don't see any sign of a surge with RPM. The oddity is that its almost 10 minutes every time, only in cold weather. Otherwise it turns on perfectly, no signs of the switch causing a disconnect, but I'll have to check the grounds when I get a chance. |
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richardc
Samba Member
Joined: September 06, 2010
Posts: 269
Location: New Jersey & North Carolina
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| Posted: Thu May 24, 2018 7:27 am Post subject: Re: Morning running problems |
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Heat riser tube plugged or air cleaner thermostat not working come to mind.
Rich
_________________
1970 Ghia vert
1970 Beetle sedan |
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TDCTDI
Samba Advocatus Diaboli
Joined: August 31, 2013
Posts: 12856
Location: North Carolina
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| Posted: Thu May 24, 2018 7:27 am Post subject: Re: Morning running problems |
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Yes, it's difficult to jog when you're sporting morning wood.
_________________
Everybody born before 1975 has a story, good, bad, or indifferent, about a VW.
GOFUNDYOURSELF, quit asking everyone to do it for you!
An air cooled VW will make you a hoarder.
Do something, anything, to your project every day, and you will eventually complete it. |
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AlmostHeavenWV_VW
Samba Member
Joined: October 12, 2017
Posts: 1966
Location: WV
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| Posted: Thu May 24, 2018 3:40 pm Post subject: Re: Morning running problems |
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| cupowater35 wrote: |
1. Bocar currently, I have an EMPI to put on it. Hoping it might be a choke issue or the fact that the fuel shut off is broken. I did try and set the choke according to the "idiots guide" |
The fuel shut off is broken? As in the carb float valve? or are you referring to the 12volt solenoid cut off?
Bocar carb is likely to give you better results- it's a near carbon copy of the Solex SVDA 34pict3. EMPI may work out, but the Bocar is likely the better route, even if you have to rebuild it.
| cupowater35 wrote: |
2. SVDA, currently not in the picture but was replaced earlier this month. Had a problem with the DVDA and could not find a direct replacement without going to a SVDA. |
Did the driveability issue occur after the swap or before? Are the symptoms you are describing now what prompted the DVDA to SVDA switch or something else happened in addition to the issues now?
SVDA replacement brand?
Bosch? Pertronix? other?
If bosch, post the # of distributor- you may have gotten a non-beetle SVDA (it can make a difference in driveability)
Some aftermarket SVDAs are a 'one size fits all' set up and aftermarket distributors have a nasty habit of having weird and varied advance curves.
| cupowater35 wrote: |
3. Stock air filter, I want to keep this car as stock as possible. No hose on the left, as long as I've owned it its never had one there. |
I would test out your air cleaner thermostat:
1) take air box off engine
2) hook hose to left port on the thermostat (the metal thingy in the middle)
3) use vaccumm hand pump(perferred) or just suck on the other end of the hose and look down in the snout of the air cleaner
4) as you apply and release the vaccum, you should see a flap rise up and fall down
5) if this flap is moving, get an appropriate length of hose and hook the left thermostat port to the left sided port on the intake manifold.
Also, when you first start up in the morning, see if you are getting any condensation/frosting/icing on the manifold directly below the carb where it splits into the two manifold tubes. If you have those things, you might have a plugged up heat riser.
Also if you let the car run for a short period of time (or after you drive it) both heat risers should be very toasty. (not just warm, but hot) if one or both aren't hot baked potato hot, you likely have heat riser clogs. (there's lots of threads on this site about how to clean out the heat risers- not hard, just time consuming.)
Those are the two things I'd start with before replacing carbs or other parts.
_________________
1973 Standard Beetle
1600DP AK case
Solex 34PICT3 Carb
Bosch DVDA 205AJ Distributor |
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TDCTDI
Samba Advocatus Diaboli
Joined: August 31, 2013
Posts: 12856
Location: North Carolina
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| Posted: Thu May 24, 2018 3:54 pm Post subject: Re: Morning running problems |
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Since it takes a while for the headlights to work & if this coincides with the run issues, I would look for a bad ground/dirty power issue, especially if it has a fuel cutoff solenoid.
And get that fuel filter out of the engine bay.
_________________
Everybody born before 1975 has a story, good, bad, or indifferent, about a VW.
GOFUNDYOURSELF, quit asking everyone to do it for you!
An air cooled VW will make you a hoarder.
Do something, anything, to your project every day, and you will eventually complete it. |
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| Back to top |
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cupowater35
Samba Member
Joined: February 21, 2018
Posts: 28
Location: West Michigan
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| Posted: Fri May 25, 2018 2:14 am Post subject: Re: Morning running problems |
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| AlmostHeavenWV_VW wrote: |
| cupowater35 wrote: |
1. Bocar currently, I have an EMPI to put on it. Hoping it might be a choke issue or the fact that the fuel shut off is broken. I did try and set the choke according to the "idiots guide" |
The fuel shut off is broken? As in the carb float valve? or are you referring to the 12volt solenoid cut off?
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Solenoid, the end of the plunger was cut off from the previous owner. As well as both the adjustment screws are hard to move and threads are somewhat damaged, not sure any adjustment is actually working.
| AlmostHeavenWV_VW wrote: |
Bocar carb is likely to give you better results- it's a near carbon copy of the Solex SVDA 34pict3. EMPI may work out, but the Bocar is likely the better route, even if you have to rebuild it.
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I will rebuild the bocar, no point in throwing it out. I put the EMPI on last night and drove it around, it's running so much smother and after this morning drive without problems, I want to believe that the choke or accelerator pump isn't set properly.
| AlmostHeavenWV_VW wrote: |
| cupowater35 wrote: |
2. SVDA, currently not in the picture but was replaced earlier this month. Had a problem with the DVDA and could not find a direct replacement without going to a SVDA. |
Did the driveability issue occur after the swap or before? Are the symptoms you are describing now what prompted the DVDA to SVDA switch or something else happened in addition to the issues now?
SVDA replacement brand?
Bosch? Pertronix? other?
If bosch, post the # of distributor- you may have gotten a non-beetle SVDA (it can make a difference in driveability)
Some aftermarket SVDAs are a 'one size fits all' set up and aftermarket distributors have a nasty habit of having weird and varied advance curves.
|
Pertronix, distributor was replaced because the vacuum retard was not working at all, I could pull vac on either side with no advance or retard. Hopefully I can repair that later this year, but for now I'll keep the pertronix on.
| AlmostHeavenWV_VW wrote: |
| cupowater35 wrote: |
3. Stock air filter, I want to keep this car as stock as possible. No hose on the left, as long as I've owned it its never had one there. |
I would test out your air cleaner thermostat:
1) take air box off engine
2) hook hose to left port on the thermostat (the metal thingy in the middle)
3) use vaccumm hand pump(perferred) or just suck on the other end of the hose and look down in the snout of the air cleaner
4) as you apply and release the vaccum, you should see a flap rise up and fall down
5) if this flap is moving, get an appropriate length of hose and hook the left thermostat port to the left sided port on the intake manifold.
Also, when you first start up in the morning, see if you are getting any condensation/frosting/icing on the manifold directly below the carb where it splits into the two manifold tubes. If you have those things, you might have a plugged up heat riser.
Also if you let the car run for a short period of time (or after you drive it) both heat risers should be very toasty. (not just warm, but hot) if one or both aren't hot baked potato hot, you likely have heat riser clogs. (there's lots of threads on this site about how to clean out the heat risers- not hard, just time consuming.)
Those are the two things I'd start with before replacing carbs or other parts. |
I am getting very hot heat risers, I can't touch them. No cold intake pipes, and It seems like the thermostat may not be working, I can pull vac and I'm not hearing anything. I'll have to figure that out this weekend, but for now the carb replacement seems to have done the trick and some. I think the bocar has a few issues that I can't see without doing a complete overhaul, not just a clean and replace gaskets.
Thank you all for the helpful hints, I will keep updating as I find things that help. |
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AlmostHeavenWV_VW
Samba Member
Joined: October 12, 2017
Posts: 1966
Location: WV
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| Posted: Fri May 25, 2018 2:43 pm Post subject: Re: Morning running problems |
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Kinda sounds like that Bocar was just due for a rebuild. Make sure to check the accelerator bushings- those things sometimes will give vacuum leaks too.
From another thread: here's the thread and the post that lists replacement thermostats that are currently available. the Autozone one was (at last check) actually the OE VW part
| mascrappo wrote: |
OK, here it goes:
The one to strive for is WELLS SU8153 is old VW number 038 129 828
VW OEM substitute:035 129 630B (new #) opens to cold air sooner
AKA:
Standard Parts: ATS47
Echlin NAPA: 2-16004
Airtex: 5S7163
Wells/Duralast Autozone: SU8654
My past experiences I have found some aforementioned aftermarket brands are just "reboxed" new/original parts. Well there you have it folks, and happy bugging! |
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...mp;start=0
I know the part is pricey, but if you have a functioning flap in the aircleaner snorkel it makes a huge difference in cold/cool temp driveability until the engine gets up to temps.
_________________
1973 Standard Beetle
1600DP AK case
Solex 34PICT3 Carb
Bosch DVDA 205AJ Distributor |
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