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Volswagon Samba Member
Joined: December 29, 2009 Posts: 299 Location: Knoxville, TN
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Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 1:50 pm Post subject: Re: Dressed crank-NOW 1.8L BUILD THREAD |
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VW Heritage Parts in West Sussex, UK has 7 sets of these 93mm P&L's available. Price shipped is #301.47, which is ~$420 (today's magic number). Anyone tried them, know the manufacturer? I'll do a search here...
ETA: they are AA's. OOPS, I just came across Aircooled.net, thought I had checked him already. He has them. What the hell, I think UK is closer to here anyway _________________ I know the pieces fit, cos I watched them fall away.
Wanna hear God laugh? Just talk about your plans.
'75 Bus https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=697183&highlight=
Last edited by Volswagon on Mon Apr 23, 2018 4:09 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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Volswagon Samba Member
Joined: December 29, 2009 Posts: 299 Location: Knoxville, TN
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Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 6:32 pm Post subject: Re: Dressed crank-NOW 1.8L BUILD THREAD |
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When I disassembled over 8 years ago, I found a piece of wire in the crankcase. The other half of the wire was still in the collapsed #2 oil ring.
Today I did the first mockup of #1 cylinder. With no cylinder base shim I have nearly perfect deck height ~.006". With the head torqued and stock pushrods and adjusters, the valve geometry looks good with no rocker shims. Happy Earth Day hippies!
ETA: It's sitting on the bench at the moment and I'm getting a workout maneuvering half a long block around. I'd forgotten how heavy these beasts are. _________________ I know the pieces fit, cos I watched them fall away.
Wanna hear God laugh? Just talk about your plans.
'75 Bus https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=697183&highlight= |
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Volswagon Samba Member
Joined: December 29, 2009 Posts: 299 Location: Knoxville, TN
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Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2018 1:54 pm Post subject: Re: Dressed crank-NOW 1.8L BUILD THREAD |
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After reading the outstanding Ralph build thread, I noticed I have all 021 rods. I matched piston and rods last time and got a 2 gram spread with them.
I was reminded that I bought the muffler from http://www.busdepot.com/071251053ek and was highly disappoint. Their info said it would work with the early heater boxes. The flanges were 1/2" too close together and I had to bash in my lower pulley tin to clear it after it melted my plastic grill over the fan. I have one of those coming with the P&L's from VW Heritage. I have a black Tbird header to go on it now.
ETA: I recall someone said that muffler was originally on Type 3's. It was heavy as hell too. Two thumbs and a pecker down rating on that one. _________________ I know the pieces fit, cos I watched them fall away.
Wanna hear God laugh? Just talk about your plans.
'75 Bus https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=697183&highlight=
Last edited by Volswagon on Fri Apr 27, 2018 4:44 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Volswagon Samba Member
Joined: December 29, 2009 Posts: 299 Location: Knoxville, TN
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Volswagon Samba Member
Joined: December 29, 2009 Posts: 299 Location: Knoxville, TN
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Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2018 5:32 am Post subject: Re: Dressed crank-NOW 1.8L BUILD THREAD |
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One of those days when you look at the garage and say I gotta straighten this up. Instead of putting the Bus in the garage, I have the garage in the Bus.
_________________ I know the pieces fit, cos I watched them fall away.
Wanna hear God laugh? Just talk about your plans.
'75 Bus https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=697183&highlight= |
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Volswagon Samba Member
Joined: December 29, 2009 Posts: 299 Location: Knoxville, TN
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Posted: Tue May 01, 2018 3:31 pm Post subject: Re: Dressed crank-NOW 1.8L BUILD THREAD |
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Could one of you kind gentlemen give me a sanity check on deck height. I mocked up no shims under the jugs and it seemed, without bolting down and no flywheel that it has virtually no deck, so I added 2 of the thin shims apiece, .7mm, and I'm comfortable with this height. Is that a safe minimum deck?
When I did the top end, I left it with the thicker ones that Stephens used on it. When Len surfaced the heads, he cut the steps saying I needed as much compression as I could get with the Raby 9550.
My other request is for any tips or thread on placing the plastic dampers. O-rings or no o-rings, grease, sliding the bolts in first, then placing them on, stuff like that? I saw a few comments on STF but not much I could find here.
Needing a fuel cutoff valve, ~9.5mm, any preferred ones? _________________ I know the pieces fit, cos I watched them fall away.
Wanna hear God laugh? Just talk about your plans.
'75 Bus https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=697183&highlight= |
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21474 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Tue May 01, 2018 3:59 pm Post subject: Re: Dressed crank-NOW 1.8L BUILD THREAD |
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Volswagon wrote: |
Could one of you kind gentlemen give me a sanity check on deck height. I mocked up no shims under the jugs and it seemed, without bolting down and no flywheel that it has virtually no deck, so I added 2 of the thin shims apiece. RW mentioned they measure .007", and I'm comfortable with a .014ish height. Is that a safe minimum deck?
When I did the top end, I left it with the thicker ones that Stephens used on it. When Len surfaced the heads, he cut the steps saying I needed as much compression as I could get with the Raby 9550.
My other request is for any tips or thread on placing the plastic dampers. O-rings or no o-rings, grease, sliding the bolts in first, then placing them on, stuff like that? I saw a few comments on STF but not much I could find here.
Needing a fuel cutoff valve, ~9.5mm, any preferred ones? |
For a stockish engine in a bus.....anything LESS than 0.040" deck height is FAR too little.
However.....if your heads have a machined in step in the cylinder seating area......then the thickness of that step.....is part of your deck height.
So for example.....if the step in the head is 0.032" (very common) then you add that to 0.007" ....you get 0.039" deck. With 2 shims you get 0.046".
As for the vibration dampers...just snap them onto the through bolt. There are six bolts qnd one damper for each. So with the case half at a slight angle and the bolts slid through that half....snap the damper onto the bolt and push into the bore of the case so its just inside near the centerline. Then mate the case.
And....what o-rings? The six main case bolts do not have o-rings. Ray |
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Volswagon Samba Member
Joined: December 29, 2009 Posts: 299 Location: Knoxville, TN
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Posted: Tue May 01, 2018 4:20 pm Post subject: Re: Dressed crank-NOW 1.8L BUILD THREAD |
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Thanks Ray, is it from an interference standpoint or compression? I recall running through the numbers on their engine calc, All that info was on a computer that died with no backup. I needed as little deck as was safe. Bentley mentioned very little that I found on the subject.
Any thoughts on the fuel cutoff valve? I'll see about adding a dial indicator to my arsenal shortly. _________________ I know the pieces fit, cos I watched them fall away.
Wanna hear God laugh? Just talk about your plans.
'75 Bus https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=697183&highlight= |
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21474 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Tue May 01, 2018 6:11 pm Post subject: Re: Dressed crank-NOW 1.8L BUILD THREAD |
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Volswagon wrote: |
Thanks Ray, is it from an interference standpoint or compression? I recall running through the numbers on their engine calc, All that info was on a computer that died with no backup. I needed as little deck as was safe. Bentley mentioned very little that I found on the subject.
Any thoughts on the fuel cutoff valve? I'll see about adding a dial indicator to my arsenal shortly. |
Both.
But the first prime use of"deck height" is to prevent interference. There are some meticulously built VW....non-stock.... engines that can use .035" and even .030".....but their chambers have been set up to make sure that there will be no interference.
And....there are water cooled engines that effectively have "0" deck....meaning the piston comes up even to the oiter edge of the cylinder......and even water cooled and full custom engines that have NEGATIVE deck....where the piston protrudes from the cylinder into the combustion area.
But again....those have combustion chambers specifically designed so the piston cannot hit anything.
So...DECK height....IS primarily to keep the piston from hiting any parts of the combustion chamber.
Because VW engines...unlike a combined block with cylinder casting like a water cooled car.....are made of several layers of parts of different materials snd there is a lot of expansion.....having deck much less than .035" can be a severe risk at high engine temps...meaning max expansion....of hitting the head with a piston.
That said......the second use for deck....is that it is VOLUME. To big of a deck volume lowers compression. To small raises compression AND risks breakiny,somdthiny hy hitting it with a piston.
So check your heads. Do they have a step? Either way....you need to CC your chambers to calculate compression ratio to find out what your deck height SHOULD BE.
No real ideas on the fuel cut off. Are you looking for electric or just a manual valve. Check at Summit racing. Ray |
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Volswagon Samba Member
Joined: December 29, 2009 Posts: 299 Location: Knoxville, TN
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Posted: Tue May 01, 2018 10:57 pm Post subject: Re: Dressed crank-NOW 1.8L BUILD THREAD |
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Thanks Ray, I just need a manual cutoff for maintenance.
Those are the numbers I needed to see after being out of the game for so long, and losing all the info I had gathered back at the start of this project.
After seeing RW's thread, I'm a little worried about this front crank seal that's been sitting for years and then getting beat up during this build-up. _________________ I know the pieces fit, cos I watched them fall away.
Wanna hear God laugh? Just talk about your plans.
'75 Bus https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=697183&highlight= |
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Volswagon Samba Member
Joined: December 29, 2009 Posts: 299 Location: Knoxville, TN
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Posted: Fri May 04, 2018 2:28 am Post subject: Re: Dressed crank-NOW 1.8L BUILD THREAD |
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Now this is more like it, got it bolted to the stand.
_________________ I know the pieces fit, cos I watched them fall away.
Wanna hear God laugh? Just talk about your plans.
'75 Bus https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=697183&highlight= |
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Volswagon Samba Member
Joined: December 29, 2009 Posts: 299 Location: Knoxville, TN
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Posted: Tue May 08, 2018 6:01 pm Post subject: Re: Dressed crank-NOW 1.8L BUILD THREAD |
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Installed tranny that I got from Rancho 17 years ago this month, and cleaned out middle and back of Bus, including rat's nest behind rear seat. Rust never sleeps indeed.
While poking around out back in the shed came across a couple of T1 carbs and a pair of T4 duals and manifolds that were stashed in the Bus when I bought her.
It's not a car...it's a BUS!
ETA: Those KYB shocks are still rockin' after 20 years. Both hubs are rebuilt.
That passenger side CHEMPI wheel-end boot cracked after hanging here for 8 years. I still have it's twin in the box. My FLAPS (Ron's Import) had an axle for less than $60 marked 211-598-331 that I just noticed says it's for an A/T. I'll search.
Also thanks to Ray for the link to the scales. They are en route, and are the exact model I weighed my last build with.
I carried all this plus my tools in there everywhere, plus camping stuff to shows, and still got ~18mpg.
I got a foot vent for the heater with that middle seat that I never used that is hiding from me at the moment. On the seat are speaker boxes and a new Pertronix TBird header.
The Ghia is barely visible in the back behind the basketball goal.
_________________ I know the pieces fit, cos I watched them fall away.
Wanna hear God laugh? Just talk about your plans.
'75 Bus https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=697183&highlight=
Last edited by Volswagon on Tue May 15, 2018 5:38 pm; edited 7 times in total |
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Volswagon Samba Member
Joined: December 29, 2009 Posts: 299 Location: Knoxville, TN
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Posted: Tue May 15, 2018 4:57 pm Post subject: Re: Dressed crank-NOW 1.8L BUILD THREAD |
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Volswagon wrote: |
...My FLAPS (Ron's Import) had an axle for less than $60 marked 211-598-331 that I just noticed says it's for an A/T. I'll search. |
This box says 485.5mm (19.1mm), the Empi box doesn't say, on my old yardstick the shafts are ~18.5".
Bentley says 476mm (18.75") for an A/T. _________________ I know the pieces fit, cos I watched them fall away.
Wanna hear God laugh? Just talk about your plans.
'75 Bus https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=697183&highlight= |
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Volswagon Samba Member
Joined: December 29, 2009 Posts: 299 Location: Knoxville, TN
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Posted: Thu May 17, 2018 1:07 pm Post subject: Re: Dressed crank-NOW 1.8L BUILD THREAD |
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Got my digital scales, weighing my rods I find the oddball one has a shorter pad at the piston end, and thicker shoulders on the cap. It is heavier on the crank end than the other 3, which are all within 1g apart. Pic is blurry but enough to see the difference. The end shot is clearer.
They are all marked 021. Can I safely remove 5g from the cap shoulders?
ETA: Got the rods within 0.5g, 762.4-762.9g. The pistons and pins are all within a gram. Should be GTG. New drive axles packed and bolted up. _________________ I know the pieces fit, cos I watched them fall away.
Wanna hear God laugh? Just talk about your plans.
'75 Bus https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=697183&highlight= |
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Volswagon Samba Member
Joined: December 29, 2009 Posts: 299 Location: Knoxville, TN
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Posted: Fri May 25, 2018 4:57 am Post subject: Re: Dressed crank-NOW 1.8L BUILD THREAD |
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Volswagon wrote: |
ETA: Got the rods within 0.5g, 762.4-762.9g. The pistons and pins are all within a gram. Should be GTG. New drive axles packed and bolted up. |
The pistons+pins range is 697.5-698.2g with two identical. Two rods are also identical weight, the above weights are minus bearings, which are all within 0.1g.
Matching leaves a total spread of 0.7g, with the two heaviest being identical. _________________ I know the pieces fit, cos I watched them fall away.
Wanna hear God laugh? Just talk about your plans.
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Vanapplebomb Samba Member
Joined: November 03, 2010 Posts: 5388 Location: Holland, MI
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Posted: Fri May 25, 2018 6:45 am Post subject: Re: Dressed crank-NOW 1.8L BUILD THREAD |
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Type 4 engines had four different connecting rods.. There were two different rods used on 1.7 and 1.8 engines most often seen in the US. Loosely speaking, the rods with the tall skinny balancing pads with an 021 part number were used on 1.7 engines. The rods that had short fat pads with an 022 part number were found in 1.8 engines. This is a general rule of thumb I have found to be true. It doesn’t appear to be 100% consistent as I have seen some 1.8 engines with 021 rods. The 1.7/1.8 rods are dimensionally the same as far as center to center spacing and main journal diameter. 55mm journal, 24mm pin bore.
The third rod specific to 1.7 engines only can be identified by its smaller pin bore.
The fourth rod is the 2.0 roads which are sized differently because of the longer stroke and smaller rod journal. 50mm journal, 24mm pin bore. As such, they will not swap between 1.7/1.8 engines.
From your pics I can see that you have some 022 and 021 rods. Although interchangeable, you will need to balance them end to end, not just by total mass duel to their different construction. _________________ 1800 Type 4 Berrien 295
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21474 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Fri May 25, 2018 7:00 am Post subject: Re: Dressed crank-NOW 1.8L BUILD THREAD |
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Vanapplebomb wrote: |
Type 4 engines had four different connecting rods.. There were two different rods used on 1.7 and 1.8 engines most often seen in the US. Loosely speaking, the rods with the tall skinny balancing pads with an 021 part number were used on 1.7 engines. The rods that had short fat pads with an 022 part number were found in 1.8 engines. This is a general rule of thumb I have found to be true. It doesn’t appear to be 100% consistent as I have seen some 1.8 engines with 021 rods. The 1.7/1.8 rods are dimensionally the same as far as center to center spacing and main journal diameter. 55mm journal, 24mm pin bore.
The third rod specific to 1.7 engines only can be identified by its smaller pin bore.
The fourth rod is the 2.0 roads which are sized differently because of the longer stroke and smaller rod journal. 50mm journal, 24mm pin bore. As such, they will not swap between 1.7/1.8 engines.
From your pics I can see that you have some 022 and 021 rods. Although interchangeable, you will need to balance them end to end, not just by total mass duel to their different construction. |
Spot on....and to back up what you just stated.....I recently was told by one of the European 411/412 forum members (may have even been you!).....that the 022 rod was originally used....first.....on the very earliest 1.7L with carbs in Europe.
And.....went to dig in my parts manual to verify....and BANG....there is was. A small note that the 022 rod was used in 1968/1969 1.7L engines.....AND......these rods and pistons used a 1mm smaller diameter wrist pin.
I have been workong on these things since 1978. That parts manual book I have had since about 2003.....read from cover to cover many times......and never have seen that small note.
Probably....because 411 and 412 with 1.7L carbed engines werw NEVER shipped to the US....and the bus version is different.
So if the rod builder has any trouble with getting a normal pin bushing into a 022 rod.....its from an early 411 1.7L. Ray |
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Volswagon Samba Member
Joined: December 29, 2009 Posts: 299 Location: Knoxville, TN
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Posted: Fri May 25, 2018 8:03 am Post subject: Re: Dressed crank-NOW 1.8L BUILD THREAD |
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Good info guys. These were in a 1.8L crate motor from Mark Stephens that arrived 20 years ago this week. The oddball rod is stamped 021 on both pieces and was heavier on the crank end than the others. It was the heaviest, now is the lightest by 0.2g, and balances like the others on the scales.
I'm out there taking apart the RF hub, the bearings were starting to grind when we were on the road. The spindle looks good, but the grease seal is hard as a brick. The disc, pads and rubber line were replaced, but I never cleaned and packed the bearings. I noticed the inner bearing is stamped USA through the grease so somebody was in there before. Off to FLAPS for new rubber lines and seals.
I was reading elsewhere about 303 protectant and a couple of VW owners' comments. Sounds like good stuff.
Thanks for all the help guys. Later, Marc. _________________ I know the pieces fit, cos I watched them fall away.
Wanna hear God laugh? Just talk about your plans.
'75 Bus https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=697183&highlight= |
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Volswagon Samba Member
Joined: December 29, 2009 Posts: 299 Location: Knoxville, TN
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Posted: Fri May 25, 2018 9:31 am Post subject: Re: Dressed crank-NOW 1.8L BUILD THREAD |
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On the way back I stopped to check on Mr. Dyno Dean Joslin, who's still alive and wrenching. Had 3 bays full of Bugs. _________________ I know the pieces fit, cos I watched them fall away.
Wanna hear God laugh? Just talk about your plans.
'75 Bus https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=697183&highlight= |
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Volswagon Samba Member
Joined: December 29, 2009 Posts: 299 Location: Knoxville, TN
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Posted: Fri May 25, 2018 7:33 pm Post subject: Re: Dressed crank-NOW 1.8L BUILD THREAD |
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I think someone had the adjusting nut a little tight on that side. Bearings cleaned and packed, caliper dusted off then fresh copper coating on the pins and pads.
Took a shower then did the old airport taxi gig for a neighbor only to turn around and bring her back home. The flight out was delayed. In a taxi it would have paid ~$70. I got $10.
Now I remember why I gave that gig up. There were more cars in the Uber line than the taxi line. And American airlines sucks ass now.
FTS. _________________ I know the pieces fit, cos I watched them fall away.
Wanna hear God laugh? Just talk about your plans.
'75 Bus https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=697183&highlight=
Last edited by Volswagon on Tue May 29, 2018 3:55 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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